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July 9th says;
Tamoharadasa says;
“Did Srila Prabhupada ever show a letter of authorization from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada?”
No, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta never proclaimed …
“Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that “Prabhupada said.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 2/9/75)
“…just like in our ISKCON there are so many false things: “Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 7/11/72)
“Sometimes they say, “Prabhupada said it.” More misleading. Yes.” (Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, 3/2/75)
“Just like in our society, sometimes they do something nonsense and they say, “Prabhupada said.” (Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 9/5/75)
If Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had said any of the above, your question would be valid.
Tamoharadasa said:
“Did he ever mention being directly deputed by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to act as diksa guru for the Westerners ?”“deputed”
de·pute
[duh-pyoot] Show IPA
–verb (used with object), -put·ed, -put·ing.
1. to appoint as one’s substitute, representative, or agent.
2. to assign (authority, a function, etc.) to a deputy.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deputed)No, Srila Prabhupada was not a deputy, he was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s authorized successor.
Indian man: When did you become spiritual the leader of Krishna Consciousness?
Srila Prabhupada: What is that?
Brahmananda: He is asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krishna Consciousness?
Srila Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru parampara.
Indian man: Did it…
Srila Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don’t go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That’s all. Otherwise nobody can become guru. (SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)For most, a secret whisper (Gaur Govinda’s claim) is lacking.
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Tamoharadasa on 15. July 2011 at 7:08 pm said:
“I don’t see how july 9th’s top of his reply quotes have any relevance?”
Your question is ambiguous – but I think you fail to see the relevance to the quotes.
Take the first quote;“Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that “Prabhupada said.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 2/9/75)
This means what it says, the point is that IF Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had said the same, then Srila Prabhupada would be required to show some WRITTEN authorization.
Gour Govinda Swami has only a secret whisper for his claim to authorization, yet Prabhupada says ..
“Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that “Prabhupada said.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 2/9/75)
Go figure.
“Gour Govinda Swami has only a secret whisper for his claim to authorization, yet Prabhupada says ..”
We have all agreed long ago that proper authorization is required to accept the role of diksa guru in our sampradaya. We have established that it need not be written, indeed, it may be between the guru and qualified disiple only, and quite quietly done at that, as in Srila Prabhupada’s case. We have also agreed, i hope, that a double standard is not required.
So, there is no recording of Srila Prabhupada receiving authorization from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta either, but we accept his word, ( plus it is obvious ). He was miraculous as well.
Gour Govinda swami was given almost instant sannyasa by Srila Prabhupada, sent to Orissa alone with mrdanga and danda and books, where he was responsible to open temple, translate the books, and preach widely the cult. People begged for his diksa, i know, i was there to see. But he waited, accepting a role of insignificance, as instructed to him by Srila Prabhupada to always cooperate and remain in Iskcon. This he humbly did. He never deviated an inch from his strict sannyasa vows, no one ever questions this. He pointed out their kali chela status , the GBC, and was persecuted for it. He was miraculous, he is worshipped as a saint in Orissa now. He was in bhava prema, and attested to as such by Gaudiya maths, and talked directly to Gopal Deity. So he was qualified by all standards of such determining. But you say he is a liar.
I say it is envious persons who lie, not saints.
The idea of written authorization and other mechanistic means of authorization is defeated, and a direct example of misapplication of the ritivk instructions by neophytes in the hard ritivk camp is given. Those offenders of Srila Gour Govinda and Srila Prabhupada therfore, must pay obeisances and recant their misunderstandings henceforth, or be seen to be envious and truth-twisters.
Pamho. AGTSP.
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This reply was deleted.
Hare Krsna vidura prabhu.
If Srila Prabhupada appointed a Diksa Guru why would there be written or verbal proof?
And if He “appointed” then surely the person could not be a Diksa Guru.Diksa Gurus are not “appointed” they are authorised by the predecessor Spiritual master.Appointment means an official type job,as in July9th letter “>>>>>soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as “rittik”-representative of the acharya.”
So i dont think we would find this type of evidence concerning the Diksa Guru.maybe another question would be more appropriate?
your servant dusyanta dasa
Instant proof that the authorization process is not quite so mechanistic as you seem to think; Did Srila Prabhupada ever show a letter of authorization from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada? Did he ever mention being directly deputed by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to act as diksa guru for the Westerners ? Certainly not the former, the latter perhaps some quote to that effect that can be culled? That being the case, then your case is misgiven. Some legalistic written authorization is certainly not strictly required, example set. No need to reply that Srila Prabhupada is special, we all know that.
@ Tamoharadasa on 14. July 2011 at 11:43 pm said:
“Did Srila Prabhupada ever show a letter of authorization from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada?”
No, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta never proclaimed …
“Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that “Prabhupada said.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 2/9/75)
“…just like in our ISKCON there are so many false things: “Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 7/11/72)
“Sometimes they say, “Prabhupada said it.” More misleading. Yes.” (Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, 3/2/75)
“Just like in our society, sometimes they do something nonsense and they say, “Prabhupada said.” (Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 9/5/75)
If Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had said any of the above, your question would be valid.
Tamoharadasa said:
“Did he ever mention being directly deputed by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to act as diksa guru for the Westerners ?”
“deputed”
de·pute
[duh-pyoot] Show IPA
–verb (used with object), -put·ed, -put·ing.
1. to appoint as one’s substitute, representative, or agent.
2. to assign (authority, a function, etc.) to a deputy.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deputed)
No, Srila Prabhupada was not a deputy, he was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s authorized successor.
Indian man: When did you become spiritual the leader of Krishna Consciousness?
Srila Prabhupada: What is that?
Brahmananda: He is asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krishna Consciousness?
Srila Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru parampara.
Indian man: Did it…
Srila Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don’t go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That’s all. Otherwise nobody can become guru. (SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)
For most, a secret whisper (Gaur Govinda’s claim) is lacking.
I don’t see how july 9th’s top of his reply quotes have any relevance? So , at this point, we still have no written authorization. As I said, there is no written authorization. But July’s next quotes are helpful; Srila Prabhupada said Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada ordered him.
Similarly then, the hard ritivks should not criticize Gour Govinda Swami for saying the exact same thing as SP said ; no written authorization, but assurance of spoken authorization. There should be no double standards. Unless you can show a written authorization, case closed. Authorization comes from spiritual master to disciple, and may not be in a form that is visible to any others.