Subject: Fw: Damaghosa das re the eternal --guru param para
Hare Krsna to all
Obeisances
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
I was just reading the following few pages today in the Make Vrndavana booklet comprised entirely of conversations with Srila Prabhupada.
The below four quotes are only within a few pages of this book. There is so much information in Prabhupada's statements. These are about guru tattva... Please read
Hare Krsna
Damaghosa das
--------------------------------
1) 750203mw.haw Conversations 371399/530501
Srila Prabhupada: Sarva-sastre kaya, lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi
haya. For me, personally, I had the opportunity to talk with my
spiritual master not more than ten times in my whole life, not more.
It may be less than that. But I tried to follow his instruction,
that's all, although I was a grhastha.
Srila Prabhupada: Sarva-sastre kaya, lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi
haya. For me, personally, I had the opportunity to talk with my
spiritual master not more than ten times in my whole life, not more.
It may be less than that. But I tried to follow his instruction,
that's all, although I was a grhastha.
----------------------
So in the above statement by Srila Prabhupada we hear him saying he was with or heard his guru maharaj not more than ten times, maybe less than ten times..
So how was Srila Prabhupada getting instructions (DAILY) from his guru? Over a span of many years (he met Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaj around 1920, and he passed away in 1935. So over the course of 15 years he was with him less than 10 times. So if you want to average it out, to less than once a year assuming ten meetings of the two personalities. So in those few short times, he got some instructions, the main one we know was "if you get money print books", and the other one was "preach to the english speaking people of the world, it will do good to you and them". And I am sure there were a few more..
So my point here is this: How was Srila Prabhupada getting daily instruction, guidance, inspiration, etc from a guru he only met less than once a year?? Could you even run a mundane family/business/temple on one instruction a year? No of course not. It takes thousands...
And the instructions Prabhupada told us he got were mainly only the above two? Hardly much information for starting a world wide organization one would think? Where did all the extreme details about Krsna Consciousness come from that you will find in Srila Prabhupadas books ?? Did he just pull these out of the air? Concoct them?
And what about getting guidance AFTER Bhaktisiddhanta maharaj left his body?This is when he wrote his books.
And what about getting guidance AFTER Bhaktisiddhanta maharaj left his body?This is when he wrote his books.
Everyone knows, Prabhupada's books and purports are his "devotional ecstasies" and they came from Lord Krsna thru the mercy of his guru maharaj Bhaktisiddhanta Maharj-WHOM HE ONLY MET LESS THAN ONCE A YEAR.
So this whole idea of needing a "LIVING GURU" is rubbish. What is "living" is not the physcial bodybut the spiritual/vani/instructions which comes thru that body.
"Vibration, what we have heard from the spiritual master-that is living"-lecture 1/13/69LA
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2) 750203mw.haw Conversations 371412/530501
Devotee (1): We can understand all of your instructions simply by
reading your books.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Anyway, follow the instruction. That is required.
Follow the instruction. Wherever you remain, it doesn't matter. You
are secure. Follow the instruction. Then you are secure anywhere. It
doesn't matter. Just like I told you that I saw my Guru Maharaja not
more than ten days in my life, but I followed his instruction. I was a
grhastha, I never lived with the Matha, in the temple. It is
practical. So many Godbrothers recommended that "He should be in
charge in this Bombay temple, this, that, that..." Guru Maharaja said,
"Yes, better he lives outside. That is good, and he will do what is
needed in due course of time."
Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!
Srila Prabhupada: He said like that. I could not understand at that time
what does he expect. Of course, I knew that he wanted me to preach.
Yasodanandana: I think you have done this in grand style.
Devotees: Jaya, Prabhupada! Haribol!
Devotee (1): We can understand all of your instructions simply by
reading your books.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Anyway, follow the instruction. That is required.
Follow the instruction. Wherever you remain, it doesn't matter. You
are secure. Follow the instruction. Then you are secure anywhere. It
doesn't matter. Just like I told you that I saw my Guru Maharaja not
more than ten days in my life, but I followed his instruction. I was a
grhastha, I never lived with the Matha, in the temple. It is
practical. So many Godbrothers recommended that "He should be in
charge in this Bombay temple, this, that, that..." Guru Maharaja said,
"Yes, better he lives outside. That is good, and he will do what is
needed in due course of time."
Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!
Srila Prabhupada: He said like that. I could not understand at that time
what does he expect. Of course, I knew that he wanted me to preach.
Yasodanandana: I think you have done this in grand style.
Devotees: Jaya, Prabhupada! Haribol!
....................
So here in the above conversation, Srila Prabhupada tells us he was not living with Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaj, nor in any Gaudiya matha temple. Rather he lived in his own grhastha ashram far far away from the physcial presence of his guru maharaj.
He said,. "wherever you remain, it doesn't matter. You are secure." ..."It is practical"
Why doesnt it matter?
Because as long as you follow the instructions of your guru maharaj, you are SECURE.
You could be living in a "temple", not following guru maharaj, and then you would NOT be secure. So physicality has nothing to do with spiritual life.
It is following the orders of the guru which are the life force or active principle.
How to live with and hear the spiritual master....
SB 4.28.47
However, the disciple and spiritual master are never
separated because the spiritual master always keeps company with the
disciple as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions of
the spiritual master. This is called the association of vani (words).
physical presence is called vapuh. As long as the spiritual master is
physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the
spiritual master, and when the spiritual master is no longer
physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the
spiritual master.
However, the disciple and spiritual master are never
separated because the spiritual master always keeps company with the
disciple as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions of
the spiritual master. This is called the association of vani (words).
physical presence is called vapuh. As long as the spiritual master is
physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the
spiritual master, and when the spiritual master is no longer
physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the
spiritual master.
how NOT to live with the spiritual master-even in his temple...
750203mw.haw Conversations
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, is it faster if one lives in the temple
and goes on the sankirtana party. Is it faster?
Srila Prabhupada: That depends on him. Even in the temple, if his mind is in
a different subject matter, then how it will help him?
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, is it faster if one lives in the temple
and goes on the sankirtana party. Is it faster?
Srila Prabhupada: That depends on him. Even in the temple, if his mind is in
a different subject matter, then how it will help him?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)....Jayatirtha: So the purpose of having the Society is to show the
devotees how they can always be twenty-four hours engaged according to
your instruction.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is helping one another. If I am deficient, by
seeing your example I shall correct myself. This is the idea, not that
a fool's paradise: all fools and join together. Not like that. There
should be ideal life, at least the leaders, the president, the GBC.
They will show the example, and they will follow. Then it is
beneficial. And all of them are fools? Then it is fool's paradise. At
least, in the blind association, at least if one man has got eyes,
then he can lead all the blind men. But if all of them are blind, then
it is fool's paradise.
devotees how they can always be twenty-four hours engaged according to
your instruction.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is helping one another. If I am deficient, by
seeing your example I shall correct myself. This is the idea, not that
a fool's paradise: all fools and join together. Not like that. There
should be ideal life, at least the leaders, the president, the GBC.
They will show the example, and they will follow. Then it is
beneficial. And all of them are fools? Then it is fool's paradise. At
least, in the blind association, at least if one man has got eyes,
then he can lead all the blind men. But if all of them are blind, then
it is fool's paradise.
-------------------------------
In this conversation with Srila Prabhupada he is saying that if one devotee is deficient in some way,then the others, because they are following guru, then by their association and example the deficient devotee can be rectified.
This is the basic ritvik system in a nutshell. The ritvik system goes way beyond initiations. Srila Prabhupada expected his disciples to hear what he said, practice it in their own lives, and then teach it to all others. This is basically called a ritvik priest, or one who performs rituals, or shows how the orders of the Acarya and Supreme Personality of Godhead are to be implemented.
And this is how the movement went on while Prabhupada was physically here with us. The TP or local GBC , meeting somewhere with Srila Prabhupada or getting a letter from him, would pass down the orders of Srila Prabhupada , and all the local rank and file devotees would follow those instructions. And the movement grew in leaps and bounds because the orders were being carried out.
Prabhupada was not physically present simultaneously in all of his 108 temples. But he was present simultaneously by his murti, his orders, his instructions and his books.
Prabhupada appointed his leaders to preach in various places throughout the world. They attracted followers who became devotees themselves, and these new devotees preached to others and the system continued in this way until he left the planet. 90% it is said of them, never physically met Srila Prabhupada, and yet they all were and still are making spiritual advancement, they all were following the orders of guru, therefore they all were situated in spiritual life-without Prabhupada even stepping a foot into their temples.
These simple non corporal concepts of spiritual life, it seems, are way beyond the minds of mundane men and women, who are presently posing as leaders and devotees, otherwise we wouldn't be having the problem we are having today.
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4) 750716pc.sf Conversations 392307/530501
Reporter (2): Are you training a successor?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, my Guru Maharaja is there. Where is my photo of Guru
Maharaja? I think... Here is.
Reporter (2): Are you training a successor?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, my Guru Maharaja is there. Where is my photo of Guru
Maharaja? I think... Here is.
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750212rc.mex Conversations 371869/530501
Guest (2): ...to choose a successor.
Srila Prabhupada: It is already successful. Genuine thing is always success.
Gold is gold. If somebody is fortunate, he can purchase gold, but gold
remains gold. If somebody purchases and somebody does not, it doesn't
matter. Gold is gold. So future, gold future is always the same as it
is at present--if it is gold. If it is something glittering, that is
another thing.
Guest (4): But there must be somebody, you know, needed to handle the
thing.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that we are creating. We are creating these devotees
who will handle.
Hanuman: One thing he's saying, this gentleman, and I would like to
know, is your successor named or your successor will...
Srila Prabhupada: My success is always there. Yes. Just like the sun is
there always. It may come before your vision or not. The sun is there.
But if you are fortunate, you come before the sun. Otherwise you
remain in darkness. Sun is open to everyone. Our Krsna consciousness
movement--Krsna is open to everyone. But if you are fortunate, you
come to the light. If you are unfortunate, do not. That is your
choice.
Guest (2): ...to choose a successor.
Srila Prabhupada: It is already successful. Genuine thing is always success.
Gold is gold. If somebody is fortunate, he can purchase gold, but gold
remains gold. If somebody purchases and somebody does not, it doesn't
matter. Gold is gold. So future, gold future is always the same as it
is at present--if it is gold. If it is something glittering, that is
another thing.
Guest (4): But there must be somebody, you know, needed to handle the
thing.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that we are creating. We are creating these devotees
who will handle.
Hanuman: One thing he's saying, this gentleman, and I would like to
know, is your successor named or your successor will...
Srila Prabhupada: My success is always there. Yes. Just like the sun is
there always. It may come before your vision or not. The sun is there.
But if you are fortunate, you come before the sun. Otherwise you
remain in darkness. Sun is open to everyone. Our Krsna consciousness
movement--Krsna is open to everyone. But if you are fortunate, you
come to the light. If you are unfortunate, do not. That is your
choice.
----------------
So these two conversations are very interesting. I have always wondered why Prabhupada explained his "successor" as the "Sun" or in the first conversation where he says for who is successor, his guru maharaj is always there. In both cases, he never said he would name anyone as successor. He did say that "we are creating these devotees who will handle" ..
Handling an organization is totally different than being its "LEADER", whom he said "we have no such thing as here is next leader". So it is clear from these two conversations that Srila Prabhupada is pointing the questioners to the eternal param para (the Sun) of eternally liberated acaryas as the "successors to the Hare Krsna movement. These Acaryas will keep the message of Bhagavad gita intact, because they, just like the Sun is always visible-
"IF you are fortunate."
Hare Krsna
your humble servant
Damaghosa das
Reply from Yasoda Nandana Prabhu;
Joseph Langevin <yasoda1008@y
To: Bharatarshabha Dasa Comments on Prabha Vishnu swami's article in Iskcon times
To: Bharatarshabha Dasa Comments on Prabha Vishnu swami's article in Iskcon times
Comment re the statements made below:
Srila Prabhupada explains about the position of bogus gurus
Jayatīrtha: Yesterday Nitāi found a quote from the Purāṇasthat says, “There are many gurus who will take away your money, but rare is the one who will take away your miseries.
Srila Prabhupāda:Guravo bahavaḥ santi vittāpahārakaḥ
Devotee: Yes, right.
Srila Prabhupada: guravo bahavaḥ santi vittāpahārakaḥtaṁtu guruṁna paśyāmi śiṣya-santā-paharakah
There are many gurus. They are very expert in plundering disciples’ money, but it is very difficult to find out a guru who can take out all the anxieties of the disciple.” Śiṣya santa-pahārakāḥ.Guru is meant for taking away the santāpa. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāyakārunya-ghanāghanatvam **. “The śiṣya will be peaceful”—objective of life—that is the business of guru, not to take away his money
Morning Walk Conversation with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda February 4, 1975
Srila Prabhupad warns about so-called acaryas of the age of kali
vicāra karena, lokera kaiche hita haya
Seeing the activities of the world, the Ācārya felt compassion and began to ponder how He could act for the people’s.
Purport
This sort of serious interest in the welfare of the public makes one a bona fide ācārya. An ācārya does not exploit his followers. Since the ācārya is a confidential servitor of the Lord, his heart is always full of compassion for humanity in its suffering. He knows that all suffering is due to the absence of devotional service to the Lord, and therefore he always tries to find ways to change people’s activities, making them favorable for the attainment of devotion. That is the qualification of an ācārya.Although Śrī Advaita Prabhu Himself was powerful enough to do the work, as a submissive servitor He thought that without the personal appearance of the Lord, no one could improve the fallen condition of society…
The so-called ācāryas of the Age of Kali are more concerned with exploiting the resources of their followers than mitigating their miseries; but Śrī Advaita Prabhu, as an ideal ācārya, was concerned with improving the condition of the world situation
CC Adi lilA 3.98
Srimad-Bhagavatam warns of kali-yuga panditas
lińgaḿevāśrama-khyātāv
anyonyāpatti-kāraṇam
lingam- the external symbol; eva— merely; āśrama-khyātau— in knowing a person's spiritual order; anyonya— mutual; āpatti — of exchange; kāraṇam— the cause;avṛttyā — by lack of livelihood; nyāya— in credibility; daurbalyam— the weakness; pāṇḍitye — in scholarship; cāpalam— tricky; vacaḥ — words
Translation
A person's spiritual position will be ascertained merely according to external symbols, and on that same basis people will change from one spiritual order to the next. A person's propriety will be seriously questioned if he does not earn a good living. And one who is very clever at juggling words will be considered a learned scholar. SB 12.2.4
5)[As stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam 10,33,30]:
"An ordinary soul should never imitate the activities of the Supreme Lord, even in his mind."
According to these instructions in devotional service, the unqualified imitators are ruined.
"An ordinary soul should never imitate the activities of the Supreme Lord, even in his mind."
According to these instructions in devotional service, the unqualified imitators are ruined.
3) Those disciples who were irresolute in performing devotional service according to your instructions have now divided your mission in many factions.It appears that the tigress of ambition for material names and fame has appeared and personally provoked this upheaval.
2) Your so-called disciple, the jackal named Ananta Vasudeva, disobeyed your final instructions to keep the mission united, and thereby created a scandalous fiasco.
The result of this philosophical deviation is evident to this day as imitative sahajiyas are being worshiped as gurus in your temples.
The result of this philosophical deviation is evident to this day as imitative sahajiyas are being worshiped as gurus in your temples.
3) Is there a single temple to be found where your instructions are still being followed?
As it is said: "punar musiko bhava"- Everyone has "again become a mouse."
As it is said: "punar musiko bhava"- Everyone has "again become a mouse."
VIRAHA ASTAKA
Recitations from Eight Prayers in Separation From My Spiritual Master by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupadaDecember 1958 recently translated and published from the Bengali into English by Dasaratha-suta dasa.
Srila Prabhupāda: I was living with servant and two sons. So I helped to start... [break] ...took from my friends, I collected some money and... So other important members said, "Why Abhaya Bābu is living separately? He should be the president of the Bombay." I never said, but they said. I was living separately. Then Prabhupāda requested, I mean to say, pleaded in my behalf so many things. He said three words, "It is better that he is living outside your company. He will do, when time will come, he'll do himself everything. You haven't got to recommend him." These very words. [break] ...Krsna require any president or any GBC. He's giving chance to everyone, that's all. Otherwise thousands of presidents and thousands of GBC may come and go, His work will go on. Krsna is complete Himself. He doesn't require anyone's help. That is Krsna. [break] ...sei hetu pracāra. One who has got life, he can preach. One is dead, what he can do? He used to say.
Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, September 26, 1976, Vrindavana, India
The incident herein described is very significant. In a previous verse it is stated, vinā mahat-pāda-rajo-’bhiṣekam: one cannot attain perfection without smearing the dust from the lotus feet of an exalted devotee on his head. If one always follows the orders of the spiritual master, there is no question of falling down. As soon as a foolish disciple tries to overtake his spiritual master and becomes ambitious to occupy his post, he immediately falls down. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto ’pi . If the spiritual master is considered an ordinary man, the disciple surely loses his chance to advance further. Despite a very rigid life in devotional service, Bharata Mahārāja did not consult a spiritual master when he became overly attached to a deer. Consequently he became strongly attached to the deer, and, forgetting his spiritual routine, he fell down.
Srimad-Bhagavatam : Canto 5: "The Creative Impetus" : SB 5.12: Conversation Between Maharaja Rahugana and Jada Bharata : SB 5.12.14
Deluded by the modes, he thinks he is divinely inspired
"Therefore, it is a hazardous path of elevation that depends on personal characteristics within the jurisdiction of the three modes of
nature. Without transcending these three material modes, a person will find himself securely in their clutches, and thus deluded, he will think that all his activities are divinely inspired. He will then broadcast this false concept, considering himself an advanced devotee and everyone else inferior. Impressed with his own knowledge, he will
try to see God by dint of this knowledge instead acting in such a way that God will want to see him. Intoxicated by false ego, he will see
his activities, which are motivated by passion, as divine. Those who are proud of their knowledge do not surrender to the Lord; instead,
they try to attain the Supreme Lord's mercy by the inductive method and thus exhibit an obnoxious mentality. One should constantly
remember the Lord and pray to Him for mercy. The Lord, situated in the devotee's heart, responds to such a prayer and illumines his heart
with knowledge, which dissipates the darkness of ignorance.
Lord Caitanya has taught:
trnad api sunicena
taror iva sahisnuna
amanina mana-dena
kirtaniyah sada harih
[Cc. Adi 17.31]
"Therefore, it is a hazardous path of elevation that depends on personal characteristics within the jurisdiction of the three modes of
nature. Without transcending these three material modes, a person will find himself securely in their clutches, and thus deluded, he will think that all his activities are divinely inspired. He will then broadcast this false concept, considering himself an advanced devotee and everyone else inferior. Impressed with his own knowledge, he will
try to see God by dint of this knowledge instead acting in such a way that God will want to see him. Intoxicated by false ego, he will see
his activities, which are motivated by passion, as divine. Those who are proud of their knowledge do not surrender to the Lord; instead,
they try to attain the Supreme Lord's mercy by the inductive method and thus exhibit an obnoxious mentality. One should constantly
remember the Lord and pray to Him for mercy. The Lord, situated in the devotee's heart, responds to such a prayer and illumines his heart
with knowledge, which dissipates the darkness of ignorance.
Lord Caitanya has taught:
trnad api sunicena
taror iva sahisnuna
amanina mana-dena
kirtaniyah sada harih
[Cc. Adi 17.31]
Srila Prabhupada BTG 1960
By pride, either artificial or real, the resultant action of austerity is spoiled; by too much affection for female association, cleanliness is spoiled; by too much addiction to intoxication, mercy is spoiled; and by too much lying propaganda, truthfulness is spoiled.
Books : Srimad-Bhagavatam : Canto 1:"Creation" : SB 1.17: Punishment and Reward of Kali : SB 1.17.25
"... It is also said, phalena paricīyate: one’s success or defeat in any activity is understood by its result. There are many karmīsin the dress of devotees, but the Supreme Personality of Godhead can detect their purpose. The karmīswant to use the property of the Lord for their selfish sense gratification, but a devotee endeavors to use the Lord’s property for God’s service. Therefore a devotee is always distinct from the karmīs, although the karmīsmay dress like devotees. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā(3.9), yajñārthāt karmaṇo ’nyatra loko ’yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ. One who works for Lord Viṣṇu is free from this material world, and after giving up his body he goes back home, back to Godhead. A karmī,however, although externally working like a devotee, is entangled in his nondevotional activity, and thus he suffers the tribulations of material existence. Thus from the results achieved by the karmīsand devotees, one can understand the presence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who acts differently for the karmīsand jñānīsthan for the devotees
Books : Srimad-Bhagavatam : Canto 8: "Withdrawal of the Cosmic Creations" : SB 8.9: The Lord Incarnates as Mohini-Murti : SB 8.9.28 : PURPORT
Srila Prabhupada: Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, he said that "When our men will be sahajiyā, oh, they'll be more dangerous." So our men are becoming, some of them, sahajiyās. This very word he said, that "When our men will be sahajiyās he'll be more dangerous."
Devotee: Without any proper realization, on the basis of being able to read Sanskrit, they delve into all kinds of books, and then they pick fault—"Oh, this rule is not being followed. This is wrong. This is wrong."
Devotee: We don't chant sixty-four rounds, so that is very bad. We'll never make any progress.
Srila Prabhupada:Sahajiyā Conversations : 1977 Conversations : January, 1977 : Room Conversation -- January 24, 1977, Bhuvanesvara : 770124r2.bhu
SP re Person who thinks he is the wiser man
San Francisco, Calif.
Letter to Rayarama
Letter to Rayarama
I may inform you that you cannot be fool as you have humbly expressed yourself. Better to remain an ever fool before the spiritual master. But if a disciple is actually fool it reflects on the spiritual master. To think of becoming a fool is the real qualification for a bonafide disciple.
As soon as one thinks that he has become the wiser man than the spiritual master one is surely doomed. We should remain everlastingly a fool before the spiritual master. Not artificially but feelingly and then we can make real progress.
Even my spiritual master a great scholar remained a so called fool before His spiritual master who was outwardly an illiterate village fellow. So in the Absolute world the fool is also the master and the master is also a fool in reciprocal exchange of dealings.Lord Caitanya also accepted Himself a great fool before His spiritual master and all of us must follow the transcendental process.
As soon as one thinks that he has become the wiser man than the spiritual master one is surely doomed. We should remain everlastingly a fool before the spiritual master. Not artificially but feelingly and then we can make real progress.
Even my spiritual master a great scholar remained a so called fool before His spiritual master who was outwardly an illiterate village fellow. So in the Absolute world the fool is also the master and the master is also a fool in reciprocal exchange of dealings.Lord Caitanya also accepted Himself a great fool before His spiritual master and all of us must follow the transcendental process.
From: Bharatarshabha Dasa <brd@hkm-gr
Dear Prabhus,Hare Krishna,
Pamho. AGSP.
We had posted article of Krishna Chandra Prabhu on Prabha Vishnu's fall down in our site giving link to prabhupada vision site. Received the following comments. Can any of you respond to this so that we can publish your response in the site? I know you will all be busy but I felt this should be responded to.
Ys
BRD
Ps: I have not published this comment in the site.
Gratitude<http://www.iskcontimes.com/prabhavisnu-swami-falldown#comment-182>
Submitted by Anonymous on Sat, 2012-01-14 02:16.
In my humble opinion, this person has all human rights to do with his life what he wants to do. We all belong to God only and the truth is no one belongs to anyone. No one can judge anyone. We are born alone and have to go alone.
Thank you, dear Prabhavishnu Prabhu, for all the great service to other people that you gave. Thank you for good times. My late mother use to come every summer to listen to your joyful Hare Krishna singing and she use to dance in happiness just like a little girl. That was what really mattered. I have understood a lot from your lovely, well wishing classes, it made me a better person. My family had good time when you were coming to Riga. I am most grateful to you. I wish you to find a place on the planet that makes you happy. Make sure you look after yourself well. Take care. Warm regards,
Renata Kundrat
_---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Prabhavishnu Swami's retirement<http://www.iskcontimes.com/prabhavisnu-swami-falldown#comment-183>
Submitted by Anonymous on Sat, 2012-01-14 22:06.
Dear Times Editor
The trials of a man are many when he seeks to do the ultimate good. Prabhavishnu prabhu has faced many, many trials his current detractors cannot even imagine taking on the responsibility of.
Charity, translated as love, dictates compassion for someone who fails to some extent in his devotional life. Sudama Swami told me of his going to
Srila Prabhupada and confessing his inability to control himself. Srila Prabhupada told him a story. A man was fighting a powerful opponent and was knocked down, he got up to fight more but was again knocked down, and again, and again he was knocked down but each time he got up and attempted to continue the fight. Srila Prabhupada said when such a man fights, and tries again and again, no one can fault that man.
That Prabhavishnu prabhu still aspires to somehow humbly serve the society of devotees in some way is evidence that he has not given up his personal fight against illusion.
One hopes your Times editorials on this subject, and others like it, will seek to convey a message of forgiveness for the mistakes devotees make in spiritual life. A fall down should engender feelings of sadness, not fuel contempt for the fallen, nor the institution, ISKCON, they are a part of. To make an issue of this type of failure and use it to denounce all ISKCON gurus and leaders is like denouncing all the people of a particular race as sick after finding a member of that race in ill health.
Christ said, "hate the sin, but love the sinner." So called devotees who seek to find fault and cry for vengeful ostracism of those who have fallen on difficult times in their spiritual quest for reuniting with Krishna are narrow minded and usually obviously pompous. This is why Christ was crucified: he stood up to the purist Pharisees who held the "law" above compassion for the lawbreakers.
To understand when compassion is appropriate one must assess the mood of the fallen person. If honest repentance is shown in that person and a renunciation of status and prestige is made the community of that person should not further condemn, but rather commend him, or at least wish him well in his reconstructed life.
I hope this will change the hearts of those who seek revenge and seem to enjoy punishing others for their mistakes. Such persons look ridiculous, unjustifiably proud and puffed-up. Their pleasure is in pointing to the faults of others to recommend themselves as purified souls and capable leaders. Their only real accomplishment is fault finding on a grand scale. Such hyper critical persons create strife and war between previously peaceful neighbors by promoting intolerance of differences. Their objective is simply to create an air of despair, to enlarge their cloud of depression and, with its shadow cut out the illumination of Krishna's all encompassing loving sun. I may be waxing a bit too analogous here, but, it is a fact that Krishna does love us all and is not without compassion for us no matter how far down we may fall. Supersoul is always there encouraging us to turn around and see Him, to take His guidance. Encouragement to do the right thing, as opposed to discouragement by means of chastisements directed at both the fallen person and at the body of managers he represents, is what is needed.
Purity is the force in ISKCON, but it is not the enforcer. Krishna is ultimately the enforcer. Our true success in ISKCON is how much we come to love Krishna and his devotees, both the fallen, the seemingly upright, the seemingly fixed, and the seemingly most fallen.
You fallen servant,
Jnanagamya das
Bharatarashabha Dasa,
Bharatarashabha Dasa,
Head Communication Public Relations,
ISKCON, Hare Krishna Hill, Chord Road,
Rajajinagar, Bangalore-560010. Phone: 080-23471956 extn 254;
E-mail: brd@hkm-group.org; Website: www.iskconbangalore.org;
Official blog: www.harekrishnablog.com; Personal blog: http://sajjanapriya.blogspot.com/
Please chant Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare.
Replies
Topic: Fw: Damaghosa das re the eternal --guru param para
Url:http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/t/44a0847d832bfaa8
=============================================================================
---------- 1 of 1 ----------
From: Joseph Langevin<yasoda1008@yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 22 08:47PM -0800
Url:http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/msg/ad25a241babc231f
For immediate release
From:"DasDasDas@aol.com" <DasDasDas@aol.com>
Subject: the eternal --guru param para
Hare Krsna to all
Obeisances
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
I was just reading the following few pages today in the Make Vrndavana
booklet comprised entirely of conversations with Srila Prabhupada.
The below four quotes are only within a few pages of this book. There is so
much information in Prabhupadas statements. These are about guru
tattva... Please read
Hare Krsna
Damaghosa das
--------------------------------
1) 750203mw.haw Conversations 371399/530501
Srila Prabhupada: Sarva-sastre kaya,
lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi
haya. For me, personally, I had the
opportunity to talk with my
spiritual master not more than ten times
in my whole life, not more.
It may be less than that. But I
tried to follow his instruction,
that's all, although I was a
grhastha.
----------------------
So in the above statement by Srila Prabhupada we hear him saying he was
with or heard his guru maharaj not more than ten times, maybe less than ten
times..
So how was Srila Prabhupada getting instructions (DAILY) from his guru?
Over a span of many years (he met Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaj around 1920, and
he passed away in 1935. So over the course of 15 years he was with him less than
10 times. So if you want to average it out, to less than once a year assuming ten meetings of the two personalities. So in those few short
times, he got some instructions, the main one we know was "if you get money
print books", and the other one was "preach to the english speaking people of
the world, it will do good to you and them". And I am sure there were a few
more..
So my point here is this:How was Srila Prabhupada getting daily
instruction, guidance, inspiration, etc from a guru he only met less than once a
year?? Could you even run a mundane family/business/temple on one instruction
a year? No of course not. It takes thousands...
And the instructions Prabhupada told us he got were mainly only the
above two? Hardly much information for starting a world wide organization one
would think? Where did all the extreme details about Krsna
Consciousness come from that you will find in Srila Prabhupadas books ?? Did he just pull these out of the air? Concoct them?
And what about
getting guidance AFTER Bhaktisiddhanta maharaj left his body?This is when he
wrote his books.
Everyone knows, Prabhupada's books and purports are his "devotional
ecstasies" and they came from Lord Krsna thru the mercy of his guru maharaj
Bhaktisiddhanta Maharj-WHOM HE ONLY MET LESS THAN ONCE A
YEAR. So this whole idea of needing a "LIVING GURU" is rubbish. What is "living" is not the physcial bodybut the spiritual/vani/instructions which comes thru that
body.
"Vibration, what we have heard from the
spiritual master-that is living"-lecture
1/13/69LA
-------------------------------------------------------
2) 750203mw.haw Conversations 371412/530501
Devotee (1): We can understand all of your instructions simply
by
reading your books.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Anyway, follow the instruction.
That is required.
Follow the instruction.Wherever you remain, it doesn't matter. You
are secure. Follow the
instruction. Then you are secure anywhere. It
doesn't matter. Just like I
told you that I saw my Guru Maharaja not
more than ten days in my life, but I
followed his instruction. I was a
grhastha, I never lived with the
Matha, in the temple. It
is
practical. So many Godbrothers recommended that "He should be
in
charge in this Bombay temple, this, that, that..." Guru Maharaja
said,
"Yes, better he lives outside. That is good, and he will do what
is
needed in due course of time."
Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!
Srila Prabhupada:
He said like that. I could not understand at that time
what does he expect.
Of course, I knew that he wanted me to preach.
Yasodanandana: I think you
have done this in grand style.
Devotees: Jaya, Prabhupada!
Haribol!
....................
So here in the above conversation, Srila Prabhupada tells us he was not
living with Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaj, nor in any Gaudiya matha temple. Rather he
lived in his own grhastha ashram far far away from the physcial presence of
his guru maharaj.
He said,. "wherever you remain, it doesn't matter. You are
secure." ..."It is practical"
Why doesnt it matter?
Because as long as you follow the instructions of your guru maharaj, you
are SECURE.
You could be living in a "temple", not following guru maharaj, and
then you would NOT be secure. So physicality has nothing to do with
spiritual life.
It is following the orders of the guru which are the life force
or active principle.
How to live with and hear the
spiritual master....
SB
4.28.47
However, the disciple and spiritual master are
never
separated because the spiritual master always keeps company with
the
disciple as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions
of
the spiritual master. This is called the association of vani (words).
physical
presence is called vapuh. As long as the spiritual master is
physically
present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the
spiritual master,
and when the spiritual master is no longer
physically
existing,the disciple
should serve the instructions of the
spiritual
master.
how NOT to live with the spiritual master-even
in his temple...
750203mw.haw Conversations Devotee
(1): Srila Prabhupada, is it faster if one lives in the temple
and goes on
the sankirtana party. Is it faster?
Srila Prabhupada: That depends on him. Even in
the temple,if his mind is in
a different
subject matter, then how it will help him?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)....Jayatirtha: So the purpose of having the Society is to show
the
devotees how they can always be twenty-four hours engaged according
to
your instruction.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is
helping one another.If I am
deficient, by
seeing your example I shall correct myself. This is the
idea, not that
a fool's paradise: all fools and join together.
Not like that. There
should be ideal life, at least the leaders,
the president, the GBC.
They will show the example, and they will follow. Then it
is
beneficial. And all of them are fools? Then it is fool's paradise.
At
least, in the blind association, at least if one man has got eyes,
then
he can lead all the blind men. But if all of them are blind, then
it is
fool's paradise.
-------------------------------
In this conversation with Srila Prabhupada he is saying that if one devotee
is deficient in some way,then the others, because they are following guru, then by their association
and example the deficient devotee can be rectified.
This is the basic ritvik system in a nutshell. The ritvik
system goes way beyond initiations. Srila Prabhupada expected his
disciples to hear what he said, practice it in their own lives, and then teach
it to all others. This is basically called a ritvik priest, or one who performs rituals, or
shows how the orders of the Acarya and Supreme Personality of Godhead are to be
implemented.
And this is how the movement went on while Prabhupada was physically here
with us. The TP or local GBC , meeting somewhere with Srila Prabhupada or
getting a letter from him, would pass down the orders of Srila Prabhupada
, and all the local rank and file devotees would follow those instructions. And
the movement grew in leaps and bounds because the orders were being carried
out.
Prabhupada was not physically present simultaneously in all of his
108 temples. But he was present simultaneously by his murti, his orders,
his instructions and his books.
Prabhupada appointed his leaders to preach in various places throughout the
world. They attracted followers who became devotees themselves, and these new
devotees preached to others and the system continued in this way until he left
the planet. 90% it is said of them, never physically met Srila Prabhupada,
and yet they all were and still are making spiritual advancement, they all
were following the orders of guru, therefore they all were situated in spiritual
life-without Prabhupada even stepping a foot into their temples.
These simple non corporal concepts of
spiritual life, it seems, are way beyond the minds of mundane men
and women, who are presently posing as leaders and
devotees, otherwise we wouldn't be having the problem we are having
today. --------------------------------------
4)
750716pc.sf Conversations 392307/530501
Reporter (2): Are you training a
successor?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, my Guru Maharaja is there. Where
is my photo of Guru
Maharaja? I think... Here is.
-------------------
750212rc.mex Conversations 371869/530501
Guest (2): ...to choose a successor.
Srila Prabhupada: It is
already successful. Genuine thing is always success.
Gold is gold. If
somebody is fortunate, he can purchase gold, but gold
remains gold. If
somebody purchases and somebody does not, it doesn't
matter. Gold is gold. So
future, gold future is always the same as it
is at present--if it is gold. If
it is something glittering, that is
another thing.
Guest (4): But there
must be somebody, you know, needed to handle the
thing.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes,
that we are creating. We are creating these devotees
who will
handle.
Hanuman: One thing he's saying, this gentleman, and I would like
to
know, is your successor named or your successor
will...
Srila Prabhupada:My success is always there. Yes. Just like the sun
is
there always. It may come before your vision or not. The sun is
there.
But if you are fortunate, you come before the sun. Otherwise
you
remain in darkness. Sun is open to everyone. Our Krsna
consciousness
movement--Krsna is open to everyone. But if you are fortunate,
you
come to the light. If you are unfortunate, do not. That is
your
choice.
----------------
So these two conversations are very interesting. I have always wondered why
Prabhupada explained his "successor" as the "Sun" or in the first
conversation where he says for who is successor, his guru maharaj is
always there. In both cases, he never said he would name anyone as successor. He did say
that "we are creating these devotees who will
handle" ..
Handling an organization is totally different than being its "LEADER", whom
he said "we have no such thing as here is next
leader". So it is clear from these two conversations that Srila Prabhupada is
pointing the questioners to the eternal param para (the Sun) of eternally
liberated acaryas as the "successors to the Hare Krsna movement. These
Acaryas will keep the message of Bhagavad gita intact, because they, just
like the Sun is always visible-
"IF you are fortunate."
Hare Krsna
your humble servant
Damaghosa das