Navina Krsna dasi
Subject: My discussion with ex-HK Obsidian on the group Siva destroyer of ignorance
Subject: My discussion with ex-HK Obsidian on the group Siva destroyer of ignorance
Obsidian Eagle:
I have heard all this before and it is nothing more than sectarian Vaishnava doctrine that only serves to divide people. The Padma Purana is not the only one in existence (i.e. Siva Purana) and there is plenty of Vedic and Upanishadic literature that hails Shiva/Rudra as Godhead. The Hare Krishnas (whom Shrila Prabhupada founded) might as well be called The Hare Christians because they talk about Krishna the same way that hardcore Christians talk about Christ. That is, that there is no way to God but through Christ/Krishna.
Furthermore, why would a kind and compassionate God want to spread delusion everywhere and purposely lie to people via a decoy Avatar? The true historical explanation is that Theistic Pandeets were defeated in public philosophical debates at Nalanda University many times when Buddhism was at its peak in India. They have never gotten over this and so created convenient scriptural explanations to justify their beliefs. The worse thing is that you have the audacity to call Buddhists delusional when in fact you haven't even read any of their literature and hug the Bhagavadgita as if it were another Bible.
I know all this because I myself was a Hare Krishna for many years but the more I have studied Buddhism, Tantra and Kashmiri Shaivism the more sense it makes than Bhakti, which requires blind faith as the above passages clearly illustrate.
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Me:
Ok, now that you exhibited your well-read, tell us what's the problem? Then hail Shiva as Godhead! :)
Shiva can assume any face and form he wants to make fun of you. You've rushed with conclusions, out of impatience. Please study buddhism more deeply.
You haven't even tasted the fullness of Truth, and left before you tasted it. That's why anger gets you when you see what you just saw.
Oh, that's how you experienced bhakti? - as something 'which requires blind faith'? I'm sorry to hear you were abused by those HK-s. Fortunatelly, I didn't allow them to abuse me.
PS
If you think Shiva is 'that' and not 'that', you're 100% wrong.
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Obsidian Eagle:
1 - I do hail Shiva as Godhead (no problem there).
2 - My problem is the dualism between Vishnu and Shiva that some of these scriptures encourage. You say that if I believe that Shiva is 'this' and not 'that' I'm 100% wrong but that's exactly what your article does with Vishnu. It puts one deity above another and openly ridicules followers of Shiva and Buddhists because they can't realize that Krishna is the ultimate truth. Heck, it even says not to talk to or listen to them. That's not very different from Christians who believe you're going to hell if you don't accept Jesus as your personal saviour. Maybe you should change the name of this group to: Worship Krishna Because Only Ignorant People Follow Shiva.
3 - You didn't answer my question: Why would a kind and compassionate God do such a terrible thing as convince his best friend to lie to people on purpose, as if the world wasn't already filled with problems? I'm surprised that this idea doesn't bother you.
If that's what Bhakti is all about, then good riddance.
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Me:
1 - That's great, but I'm afraid you don't understand 'how' he is Godhead.
2 - The problem of apparent 'duality' is in your material mind and material consciousness only. This mystery can be understood only if you elevate your mind and consciousness to the level of pure goodness. That's why gradual elevation from ignorance, to passion, to goodness, and finally to pure goodness, is advised. Along with your elevation through gunas, certain literatures 'match' your present level of consciousness.
It takes a little bit of ability to draw conclusions via both inductive and deductive process of reasoning. So let me start backing-up my statements:
Krsna said to Uddhava: "...and among Rudras I am Lord Shiva." Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.16.13
Krsna said to Arjuna: "Of all Rudras I am Lord Siva..." Bhagavad-gita 10,23
So where is duality? You can read Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-bhagavatam forever, and you might not understand a damn thing they say. If you couldn't understand the Truth via these pure sattvic transcendental literature, how are you to understand it through intentionally polluted non-sattvic literature adjusted for lower stages of God's consciousness?
So, after Krsna clearly identified Himself with Siva in these 2 examples, why we're told that Siva is not equal to and would never be equal to Krsna? Krsna also identified Himself with countless other attributes, of which just the most prominent were enumerated in 10th chapter of BG which covers the subject of His inconceivable opulences.
The most simple and plain answer to this is: the part can never be the same as the whole although it contains all qualities of the whole. The more complex answers will follow. But if you try to understand the Perfection with imperfect mind, i.e. from material point of view, you'll certainly fail, and I really wonder what will be the result of this discussion with you...
You know, actually there are too many references in scriptures, I don't even know which ones to choose! The following are the quotes for SB canto 11, where Krsna instructs Uddhava about the most advanced spiritual knowledge and the ways to attain it... Please read slowly.
SB 11.19.17: From the four types of evidence — Vedic knowledge, direct experience, traditional wisdom and logical induction — one can understand the temporary, insubstantial situation of the material world, by which one becomes detached from the duality of this world.
SB 11.28.9: By direct perception, logical deduction, scriptural testimony and personal realization, one should know that this world has a beginning and an end and so is not the ultimate reality. Thus one should live in this world without attachment.
SB 11.22.34: The speculative argument of philosophers — "This world is real," "No, it is not real" — is based upon incomplete knowledge of the Supreme Soul and is simply aimed at understanding material dualities. Although such argument is useless, persons who have turned their attention away from Me, their own true Self, are unable to give it up.
SB 11.16.38: As the Supreme Lord I am the basis of the living entity, of the modes of nature and of the mahat-tattva. Thus I am everything, and nothing whatsoever can exist without Me.
Now let's try to conclude this dillema...again read slowly, word by word:
"Practically speaking, there is no conflict between personalism and impersonalism. One who knows God knows that the impersonal conception and personal conception are simultaneously present in everything and that there is no contradiction. Therefore Lord Caitanya established His sublime doctrine: acintya-bheda and abheda-tattvam-simultaneously one and different."
Bhagavad gita 7,8 Purport
So the conclusion of all is:
"In Bhagavad-gītā five principal subject matters have been discussed: the Supreme Personality of Godhead, material nature, the living entities, eternal time and all kinds of activities. All of these are dependant on the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. All conceptions of the Absolute Truth, namely, impersonal Brahman, localized Paramātmā, or any other transcendental conception, exist within the category of understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although superficially the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the living entity, material nature and time appear to be different, nothing is different from the Supreme. But the Supreme is always different from everything. Lord Caitanya's philosophy is that of "inconceivably one and different." This system of philosophy constitutes perfect knowledge of the Absolute Truth."
Bhagavad gita 18,78 Purport
So, it is in your interest not to 'listen' from 'them', i.e. from less perfect sources. But of course, if you want it, who can prevent you? Please, go ahead. You don't have to accept anything. Try everything! When you become completely satiated with it, then you'll be ready to step out of it. The 'only' risk is that it can take few millions of births, but if you insist... :)
3 - I'll gladly answer this question. I derive great bliss from speaking about these two 'guys' Krsna and Siva. :) You asked: "Why would a kind and compassionate God do such a terrible thing as convince his best friend to lie to people on purpose, as if the world wasn't already filled with problems? I'm surprised that this very idea doesn't make you upset."
It doesn't make me upset at all, not any more - that's the power of truly enlightening Knowledge given in Vedas, if it is understood properly, of course. Why can't kind and compassionate God be terrible at the same moment? :) There is nothing that isn't Him, i.e. everything is Him, the Complete Whole. How can you try to deny anything in Him, whatsover? So, everything exists in Him: you, me, Siva, heaven, hell, cheating doctrines, everything. Still, He is aloof of everything. If you have ears to hear, then hear. If you haven't, than nobody is able to help you!
He said to Arjuna: "I am also the gambling of cheats..." Bhagavad-gita 10,36
From the Purport: 'There are many kinds of cheaters all over the universe. Of all cheating processes, gambling stands supreme and therefore represents Kṛṣṇa. As the Supreme, Kṛṣṇa can be more deceitful than any mere man. If Kṛṣṇa chooses to deceive a person, no one can surpass Him in His deceit. His greatness is not simply one-sided — it is all-sided.'
You should understand that both Krsna and Siva are renounced personalities. This means: no attachment and no aversion to anything, whatsoever. This is pure spiritual consciousness. You can go and try to find this pure spiritual consciousness and the bliss it derives wherever you want. You will find many levels of it, as you do with tantra and buddhism now, but only in the Perfect you'll find perfection.
Siva-tattva is extremely complex subject, and I intended to share something about it in this group, but you, out of impatience tried to undermine the only one article that I posted about it so far. :)
It is surprising that you're asking me this question No.3 if you've read Siva Purana! The deceitful roles of Siva there are so numerous! So, what is 'wrong' with his behaviour or with Visnu's order to go and lie and cheat those foolish who are not interested in the Absolute and who are about to throw yet another human incarnation? Siva accepted it as - duty. To act out of 'duty', is to act without attachment or aversion in its excecution. He is simply serving Visnu (Krsna) and that service is the cause of Siva's total transcendental bliss, of which you, shaivites and buddhists have no clue.
So, if you're interested to know 'how' Siva is part of Visnu-tattva (and that is what makes him non-different from Krsna) and more about his Siva-tattvas, and to learn from mostly pure sattvic sources, you can stay here. If you don't like the contents here, then leave this group and create the group of your own.
Please consider this statement too:
"We're already living in a movie that we star in and direct. The Producer works very closely with us to see that we get the illusion we want."
True Bhakti is very confidential subject. It stands above all other processes for a reason.
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Obsidian Eagle:
Nirmama,
Thank you for taking the time to write this, it is a much better response than your first one (even though it still carries a mocking tone).
Listen, I don't disagree that there is no duality between Vishnu and Shiva, I think that's great.
The element of Krishna as a trickster is a very fascinating one too. As I recall, he employs trickery in The Mahabharata quite a lot.
Still, it's illogical to say that there is no duality between Shiva and Vishnu and then that worship of Vishnu is better in the same sentence. If one is the whole and the other its part, or if one is lower and the other higher then that my friend has a name: duality!
I personally believe that they are equal and interchangeable and honestly, why should it matter if we hail Godhead as Shiva, Vishnu, Jehova, Jesus, Allah or whatever? If one is truly enlightened, these names are all relative and ultimately meaningless because 'God' is beyond the words of any language (although represented by them).
I too have read the Srimad Bhagavatam but reject it because it obviously promotes Krishna above any other god. This is a sectarian tactic and I'm sorry but the above verses sound a lot like this:
Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
By which logic, we are both wrong. That's why there's so much disagreement between religions and war on this planet, because people say: Our God is better than the rest, don't worship that other god or we won't get along.
I refuse to believe in that as enlightened thinking. It's very ironic that in a group called Shiva: Destroyer of Ignorance - I - a Shaivite Tantrika am being disrespectfully criticized for holding a lesser belief. Surely the gods have a twisted sense of humor :}
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Me:
Obsidian,
you obviously didn't read carefuly what I wrote about duality-non-duality relations. I expected you'd take time for a while and try to solve the puzzle in your head, and correctly connect the dots.
By the way, have you ever done the 'slate clean' thing to your mind? Complete erase, delete thing? You should have. Even don Juan taught this as the basic activity to be done. All these ideas, thoughts and impressions jump here and there around like monkeys in your head. Then you wonder what's wrong 'with the world' outside...
I've explained everything. I've extracted knowledge from different paths and scriptures and all this is also my personal experience and conclusion. You haven't yet noticed that all traditions and paths speak the same thing? Well, dive deeper and realize the common things, or rather, the same thing everywhere, rather than trying to point at so-called differences.
Now let me simplify even more. In spiritual logic, forget about 'OR'. It is present only in material logic. For example, you crave to know - is it, or - is it not. Yes 'OR' No, right?
In spiritual logic there is only 'AND'. Whatever you want to ask, the answer is 'Yes' AND 'No' at the same time. For example, high and low are non-different. Soul and (spiritual) body are non-different. In Spirit everything is of Absolute nature. In the realm of Absolute, everything exists. But it is - one with-and different-at the same time.
It is obvious that you're quite deeply immersed in these illusory material objects of this world along with your material thoughts collected via material senses with which you identify yourself and others, but I'm saying this to you anyway, so at least you have this information somewhere in the back of your mind.
Hopefully, one day you'll be able to get rid of the garbage in your mind accumulated over many lifetimes. I am speaking from personal experience, because I did it. Buddhism, tantrism, don Juan, Vedas, Christianity, all speak about the same thing, the same spiritual practice, or rather the same goal: to learn to control the mind and senses, to purify the mind, cleanse the heart and to become pure spirit again. (If you ask me, this is just the first step. :D )
Yes, of course you can hail whomever you feel or believe is the 'highest' entity. Some of those names are the same personality, some are different personalities though. I have explain that there is ONE, the Whole. If the One Personified never spoke about Himself, about the whole creation, including demigods in charge of material affairs, and the whole and precise transcendental ontology, we'd never know. Never! We'd fantasize forever, with no chance to sort out anything whatsoever.
You obviously don't remember how Vedas came into existence? Well, I am not going to explain it on this group. SB and BG are to be read over and over again, there is no end to them...
The thing is that you don't accept Krishna as the Master of the Whole Game, but your opinion doesn't change a thing about this Truth. So what if you don't accept it? Big deal.
What Jesus says is true. :) You should rather find out who is Jesus in the pantheon of gods. :) As per me personally, I passed through Siva & Sakti, not only through Jesus. :)
You feel being disrespectfully criticized? :) You dropped in the group and without warning started offending the Vaisnavas, the Vedas, Srila Prahupada and the 'fanatical' person who posted such stupid article in order to create more shit in this world, and you say that YOU are being disrespectfully criticized?! You assumed that here is one stupid brainwashed HK follower who has no idea about anything else but Bhagavad-gita, right? With these words you addressed the group members, me, and that's how you introduced yourself.
You are so green and quite uncivilized to say the least. I could have kicked you out of the group immediatelly, but due to my compassion and tolerance which I learned from Shiva, I didn't do it and I didn't even say a word in defense. You should be the one to think about your behaviour and apologize.
It is not criticizing what I said about the Absolute Truth: it is Self-Evident, obvious Truth. But the tragedy is that one can look at and deny even the obvious, self-evident truth. By doing so, one hurts themselves, not others. That's what happened in your case, and countelss other cases, without exception.
Lord Shiva is the meekest of all, and who are you - who claim to be his follower? :)
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Obsidian Eagle:
Nimama,
You're right. Let's start again fresh shall we? I apologize for disturbing the peace, but this is a public group after all and even disagreement can lead to deeper understanding.
"In spiritual logic, forget about 'OR'. It is present only in material logic. For example, you crave to know - is it, or - is it not. Yes 'OR' No, right?
In spiritual logic there is only 'AND'. Whatever you want to ask, the answer is 'Yes' AND 'No' at the same time. For example, high and low are non-different. Soul and (spiritual) body are non-different. In Spirit everything is of Absolute nature. In the realm of Absolute, everything exists. But it is - one with-and different-at the same time."
To my mind, this is the first thing you've said that actually makes sense. However, you contradict it almost immediately by saying that Krishna is master of the whole game. That takes us back to Shiva OR Vishnu OR Christ style thinking. It's basically same as saying, "Everybody's right, but believers in Krishna are MORE right." But really, it's not a big deal either, just an item that we won't ever see eye-to-eye on.
"Lord Shiva is the meekest of all, and who are you - who claim to be his follower?"
Shiva is the lover of his lovers and also (like Krishna) a wrathful god at times. Even the demons and outcasts worship Shiva so why would I have anything to prove there?
Although I admire you calmness despite my agressive attitude, you clearly look down your nose at those whom you consider unenlightened because they have a mind 'full of garbage' rather than knowledge. The same way that you consider Krishna above and beyond all demigods, you don't consider others as equals if we believe something different because apparently you have nothing left to learn from your fellow humans. Kick me out if you wish, there's not that many people here anyway, which is not surprising considering the sectarian atmosphere.
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Me:
Obsidian,
you were not disturbing the peace. On the contrary, thank you for this conversation. You were offensive unto those whom I enumerated in my previous post. You were offensive unto the greatest 'nagual' of this age. Got it? You were offensive, and now you wonder why the same mirror is before your nose. :)
I am running out of inspiration to continue to show you what is obvious; it is too much time & energy consuming. It seems that your vision is blurred, eagle. Try practicing induction-deduction reasoning. Hint: the eagle flies high to get a big picture. Then he goes down to see details.
What's the meaning of that eagle picture on your blog and in the nickname that you use? What does obsidian have to do with you and eagle?
I didn't mention 'slate clean' of the mind for no reason. It may become great advantage, but also great disadvantage for those who are scared or weak. Furthermore, the mind can be filled with garbage even after complete cleansing process if you don't know what to do then. What to speak of minds which were never cleansed?
We are equal in general sense, and non-equal in individual sense. How can you claim that we're only equal? For example, I can't find a qualified opponent for myself, only offenders come and go. That's sad.
The group is quite new, just as my membership here on site. I didn't force with too many activities here. I didn't push too many posts into people's nose. I've got all the time in the world. Is it sectarean atmosphere? Again you rushed with conclusions.
Good luck with Srimad Bhagavatam! It is higly esoteric literature; can't be read as any other 'book'... you're supposed to fall into total spiritual ecstacy from the moment you start reading till the end of reading. Hopefully this bliss gets prolonged more and more...
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After this post of mine, he left and deleted all his comments. I just took my chance to put vaisnava philosophy on the absolute level. This is sort of my style of discussion with an opponent. I allow some absurdities in a debate, but I keep myself on transcendental level all the time, at least I try to! :D
Replies
Thank you Prabhuji BG! Yes, I've read about these pecentages somewhere but I didn't know where. Thank you posting it here, very nice.
I've got the final conclusion to post there in that discussion yet, to nail it down, although everything is being said already, and is obvious to everybody who wishes to see. Here is the link to that debatable article: http://www.templeilluminatus.com/group/shiva-destroyer-of-ignorance...
Just read the discussion from the link you provided. I didn't yet read neither Visnu nor Siva purana, I've just scrolled down through them to get the big picture. Will do it one day.
"One who says he is My devotee, but has no devotion for Mahadeva, he is not actually my devotee" Lord Vishnu, Sri Hari.
"One who is my devotee but not a devotee of Lord Vishnu is not in reality my devotee" says Lord Hara deva, Siva Sambhu.
In the Brahma-vaivarta purana, Lord Shiva spoke to the demigods, the devas, about the glories of chanting Sri Krishna's names:
adhunaa pancha-vaktrena yan naama-guna-krsna-kirtanam
gaayan bhramaami sarvatra nishprhah sarva karmasu
With my five faces I chant His name and qualities while I wander everywhere without involving myself in anything, in a spirit of detachment.
matto yaati ca mrtyush cha yan naama-guna-krnsa-kirtanam
shaasvaj japantam tan naama drshtavaa mrtyuh palaayate
Because I constantly chant Lord Narayana's Name and Qualities, death does not touch me ! Death runs away from that person who chants His name !
sarva brahmaanda samhartaapy aham krtyunjayaabhidhah
schiram tapasaa yasya guna-naamaanu-krsna-kirtanaat
By reciting His name and qualities while performing my austerities for a long time, I have achieved the power to destroy all the universes and have conquered even death.
Thank you, Mataji, it was a challenge to preach!
He was simply insecure and hurt. He was being inquisitive but offensive at the same time. So I had to find a way to both teach him and chastise him at the same time. It is obvious that he is hurt from times when he was 'Hare Krsna' member. I know many of this sort of people, who were mentally, emotionally and sometimes physically abused in different Iskcon temples by different temple members. They are hurt, that's why they reject it altogether. These are some of the grave mistakes of Iskcon - killing the early creepers of faith and devotion in neophyte devotees. Devotees would either flee/fight or simply comply. I have no idea if the situation is the same these days, but it was like that in the past.
When I started showing early signs of love for Krsna, some of my friends who were abused in Iskcon started warning and begging me not to join Iskcon. They were speaking their angry and hurting heart out. They were sincere. It is true that they're mostly materialistic, but that is their level of consciousness for the time being. Some of them took shelter at Lord Shiva, which is not bad at all. If they stick to Lord Shiva, one day their chanting and devotional service they performed to Krsna in the past will certainly pay off. I have no doubt of this. By the way, I feel respect to anyone who chanted God's Name even once, what to speak of those who chanted it over a certain period of time.
Unfortunatelly, I think he will remember even me for being crude with him. I had to be rude with him since he was offensive. I did my job to try to make him see his offense, he didn't want to admit it, so we had to split... You know, each situation is unique, so we have to be cautious regarding our service at all times, asking the guidance from SP and Krsna all the time.