19 February 2012
Spiritual Lust vs Material Lust. I beg your pardon...what is going on?! :-O
Spiritual logic is NOT like material logic, where we crave to know is it right or wrong, black or white, is it or isn't it... There is no such conflict in terms of dualities in the realm of Absolute. If we have such conflicts in our minds, that is only the proof that our mind isn't spiritual nor transcendental. Furthermore, in no way we can try to interpret spiritual issues via material senses, material logic, and material consciousness. Why?
Being in material existence, we acquire our experiences and knowledge through material senses only. If we take these material senses as fully reliable and all-in-all means for gathering informations and experiences, then we're doomed to run around in circles like fools forever. All spiritual teachings teach that, Bhagavad gita as King of Knowledge stresses this truth very seriously. In BG it is explained in great detail, all about senses, about mind, false ego, modes of material nature, etc.. and their relationship. Matter can not pierce through spirit (due to its inferiority and limitation), but spirit permeates everything. To come to the spiritual position, one must gradually rise through material modes of nature, from ignorance, to passion, to goodness, and finally to pure goodness, which is purified state in which one can perceive and understand spiritual issues without becoming confused with them. To try to reach the highest point from the lowest point is absurdity of false ego. Many tried, but failed. What to speak of understanding pure highly confidential spiritual literatures such as rasa-literature...
To come to state pure goodness, one must undertake certain spiritual practices and disciplines in which one should learn to regulate their senses and mind. That is why chanting and 4 regulative principles are a must. Without doing so, one cannot rise beyond pure ignorance. Besides practicing those disciplines, one must also study scriptures very carefully and systematically, like Bhagavad gita and others.
I've whitnessed many examples of those (including myself at the beginning, being very stubborn, but sobered up later) who tried to study these purely spiritual literatures like Bhagavad gita from their material consciousness deeply immersed in ignorace; they misunderstood everything and are the most unfortunate persons that I know. It is like this: they were so fortunate to meet with such transendental literature, i.e. they came to the source of the purest water, but they didn't drink, and they left it remaining thirsty...and kept on searching. What a tragedy!
This age of Kali is most fallen by itself, we all are so fallen, but we don't know it because we're not enlightened by pure spiritual knowledge neither we want to hear about it.
Having countless bad experiences with different religious and spiritual teachers myself, I became very rebellious against ALL kinds of authorities who tried to impose some 'supreme truth' onto me. The truth is: yes, there are cheaters, almost all are cheaters. But I had to experience all these pain of cheating, betrayal and hypocrisy, that is part of my karma, and absolutely part of this age full of hypcrisy, quarrel and ignorance. You cannot avoid it even if you wanted it in this age. That is actually toughest part of a test. So one can choose among cheaters or taking a lonesome path which is maybe less painful but equally misleading. Or one can continue the search for bona fide guru, against all hopes and all past experiences.
In this age of Kali, Miss Kali is making a fool of everyone. Literally. Kali is faithful Krsna's servant. Anyone in this material world is under her influence, even devotees, and especially them! They're even more tested because Krsna doesn't want someone with cheating habits and false pride in His company. Krsna Himself is a trickster without competition though! If He decides to cheat us, we're doomed! Yikes!Often times He seems merciless while testing His devotees. For example He had to crush pride of gopis who thought they were something special because they were His beloveds. So he crushed them so hard by leaving them for a long time and being with other women, so that they can become completely humble in mood of pure service. The pain He put them in, is outta of this world, out of reach, beyond words of description. But He did it. He was crushing them and helping them at the same time: for in such painful feeling of separation, they experienced highest level of ecstacy! This ecstacy is considered far more intense than ecstacy that they felt when Krsna was present with them.
Why I am saying all this? Because we should try to understand this apparent duality in Krsna's words and behaviour. The same thing we see in Srila Prabhupada's books and vedic literatures. How can the same one Krsna teach that 'lust' is the main enemy of all, and then we find the same word "lust" in relation with gopis, the purest of all, the most perfect of all? - "Oh, is it or is it not - right?! Come on Krsna, make up Your mind! Is spiritual lust the same as material lust? Is there any difference? What about anger, pride? Are there spiritual anger and pride? What's that? Are you talking about the same things or?"... :)
Of course, there is ocean of difference between lust of person immersed in total ignorance, and for pure devotees like gopis. If it was the same, what is the purpose of teaching about gunas (modes of material nature), of difference between spiritual and material energies and their natures, and all other topics covered in great detail in Bhagavad gita and other scriptures like Srimad-Bhagavatam? If it's all the same, and if we're all the same, why can't we simply jump over there right now? All we can do is sigh and continue our wishful thinking... If Krsna says at the end of Bhagavad gita - 'leave all religion and just surrender unto Me', then why did He speak the whole Bhagavad-gita and mentioned so many topics and different processes for attaining the highest purpose of life? What is the purpose of writing such extensive Vedic literature at all, if surrender is all it takes actually? Is this knowledge actually misleading us or what? Where's the catch? Why can't we surrender completely now? Can we? Oh... How can the same Krsna be the religion giver and religious principle Himself and at the same time - debauchee? I mean, this is too much... :-o
Isn't it rather act of causless Mercy of the same Lord who said 'leave all religion and surrender to Me'? Isn't there something in-between? If there was not such extensive transcendental literature, we'd be doomed to remain forever in domain of these dark material universes! If He Himself didn't descend to one of His incarnations to compile Vedic literatures into books, we in this age would never ever know anything about Him. So, He, out of His causless Mercy, speaks of Himself, of His devotees, of His pastimes, etc etc... Therefore, the Vedas are not of human origin. (Oh, we've heard this before about Bible and other scriptures, yes?) Vedas are emanations from Lord Maha-Visnu. They are emanated from Him always, from the beginning of creation, till its dissolution. So it is considered very serious offense to blaspheme Vedas. Maha-Visnu is one of the expansions of Lord Krsna. Krsna expands Himself either directly or indirectly into innumerable expansions, and incarnations. So ultimately, everything comes from Krsna, including Vedas, which are not mere books, but pure spiritual sound vibration because they come from Pure Spiritual Principle, the origin of all - the Lord Himself.
Now to conclude this question of apparent 'duality' in Krsna's words found in Vedic literature, here is the philosophical conclusion given by Lord Caitanya (incarnation of Lord Krsna Himself) and explained by Srila Prabhupada:
Bhagavad gita 7,8 Purport
"Practically speaking, there is no conflict between personalism and impersonalism. One who knows God knows that the impersonal conception and personal conception are simultaneously present in everything and that there is no contradiction. Therefore Lord Caitanya established His sublime doctrine: acintya-bheda and abheda-tattvam- simultaneously one and different."
Link: http://bhagavad-gitaasitis.com/?g=2532
At the very end of Bhagavad-gita it is concluded that "This system of philosophy constitutes perfect knowledge of the Absolute Truth." = Means: otherwise, there is no way to even start to understand the Lord.
Bhagavad gita 18,78 Purport
"In Bhagavad-gītā five principal subject matters have been discussed: the Supreme Personality of Godhead, material nature, the living entities, eternal time and all kinds of activities. All of these are dependant on the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. All conceptions of the Absolute Truth, namely, impersonal Brahman, localized Paramātmā, or any other transcendental conception, exist within the category of understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although superficially the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the living entity, material nature and time appear to be different, nothing is different from the Supreme. But the Supreme is always different from everything. Lord Caitanya's philosophy is that of "inconceivably one and different." This system of philosophy constitutes perfect knowledge of the Absolute Truth."
Link: http://bhagavad-gitaasitis.com/?g=6105
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I know this was hard to read and follow because it sounds like dry philosophy. But without understanding the subject matter correctly, we simply mix and confuse everything and continue to speculate on our own and thus we remain in the reign of pure darkness although we think we're not 'there' anymore.
Now something about sexual and erotic issues in Krsna's pastimes. Srila Prabhupada said that there IS sex in spiritual world, but it is considered the last pleasure of all. (Sorry I can't find the reference right now). Here on earth it is considered axis of the universe and motive of all actions, but in spiritual world, he said, it is least important issue. It exists, because everything exists within Krsna as is stated above.
So in Srila Prabhupada's spiritual books everything exists: 'purity' as well as 'sex'. In his teachings, the first is encouraged, the latter is only mentioned. (In the realm of Absolute, there is no difference between them, there is only service to Krsna.) So nobody is denying anything. But, for the degraded foolish material people of this age, it is most dangerous to encourage them to indulge in sexual life, which is here in MATERIAL world the cause of bondage and the eternal samsara (cycle of birth and death). BUT, in SPIRITUAL world, it is utilized only for Krsna's pleasure. Gopis have no sexual desire as we do, otherwise, that would be considered selfish desire. Their only desire is to SERVE Krsna. We cannot even imagine purity of their service. That service is their actual LUST (i.e. craving for, yearning for...) If this service includes sexual stimulation of Krsna's senses, they're ready for such service. But the details of pastimes in spiritual world are not really disclosed, are they? :) There are certain literatures that more openly describe or suggest what is actually going on, but it is all less then scratching the surface and is confusing for most of us...
Just be sure they're not bothered with male-domination issues there. Being with Krsna, their competition is only in service, they serve Krsna falling one over another, and Krsna serves them equally, reciprocating.
So, basically, there are many LEVELS OF PERFECTION of love of Krsna. I'll give you 2 examples of madhurya-rasa types (one married and one unmarried). Many examples of different types of devotees can be found in Srimad Bhagavatam so I recommend it. There was a woman named Trivakrā (Kubja). She had intense sexual desire to enjoy Krsna, but she wanted to enjoy it herself, she didn't care about His enjoyment. That's purely selfish, isn't it? Yet, Krsna satisfied her desire but He also freed her from sexual lust which tormented her.
So, although her sexual lust was directed towards Krsna, she is considered to have very imperfect love for Him. This example is also nicely mentioned in Ujjvala Nilamani. But what do we know about her previous lives, her karma, or her eternal taste she has with Krsna? It remains enigma for us. We know nothing about it, but Krsna knows. There are also many examples where women wanted Him sexually but He didn't even glanced at them, or He mocked them and even embarrassed them!
There are other examples, like Satyabhama, one of His principle qeens-wives, who had some selfish desire too but less than Kubja, but it is still considered imperfect. :) (...I have only touched these two examples; one should read Srimad-Bhagavatam very carefully, to understand it better.) The perfection of love of Godhead can be found in gopis and manjaris - servants of gopis. It is said that manjaris' ecstacy is the sweetest of all.
Here is one interesting reference from Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.1.1, Purport by Srila Prabhupada: "Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura specifically deals with the original and pure sex psychology (ādi-rasa), devoid of all mundane inebriety. The whole material creation is moving under the principle of sex life. In modern civilization, sex life is the focal point for all activities. Wherever one turns his face, he sees sex life predominant. Therefore, sex life is not unreal. Its reality is experienced in the spiritual world. The material sex life is but a perverted reflection of the original fact. The original fact is in the Absolute Truth, and thus the Absolute Truth cannot be impersonal. It is not possible to be impersonal and contain pure sex life. Consequently, the impersonalist philosophers have given indirect impetus to the abominable mundane sex life because they have overstressed the impersonality of the ultimate truth. Consequently, man without information of the actual spiritual form of sex has accepted perverted material sex life as the all in all. There is a distinction between sex life in the diseased material condition and spiritual sex life." (The link: http://srimad-bhagavatam.com/?g=6120)
So, this is the basic point to start from: there are different rules of the Game in material worlds, and different rules in spiritual worlds. So first of all, we should strive to know and understand WHERE we are at all? What is this world, why we are here, how did we end up here? How to get out of it? IN NO WAY can we compare ourselves (in this fallen state) with gopis, nor with Lord Shiva or Lord Visnu. If we do so, and if we imitate them, thinking: 'Oh, they can make orgies, so we can too!' Many are doomed because they believed that they can behave as gopis or Shiva while being in this miserable material world and body... By doing so, they simply arouse their material senses which soon start to crave after sensation, for manifestation... and there we go after - either partner or - victim: child, or women... That was the case with majority of those who tried it so and considered themselves equal to gopis or Lord Shiva, for example. So why should it be encouraged by true spiritual teachers who teach fallen souls in material world, in Kali-yuga? They mention it, because it exists, but they don't promote it, and they sure know what they're doing. It can be only encouraged by false gurus, rascals.
I was on the verge to start following this false philosophy but was saved by Krsna's causless mercy. I really don't want to risk my way back to Godhead. Once I get there, then we'll see, whatever, anything... But here in this material world, being under the influence of material energy, hmmmmm... it is too risky to risk anything.
The complete Knowledge about this material world and the truth about God must be known while in this world; one must clearly understand the difference between 'material' and 'spiritual'. These are absolutely necessary. That is what incarnation in human body serves for, and it can be known only from Vedic literature. There is the whole science, in great detail. No other scripture contains something like that. But the catch is that this literature cannot be read like any 'book': these are pure transcendental literatures, and for reading such literature, one needs discipline in senses, mind and guidance from someone who is qualified in explaining others the intricacies of spiritual science. Otherwise there is no liberation from the traps of Miss Kali and her games of illusions. (By the way, the gopis are personification of Vedas and sages, they know everything! They're not just stupid illiterate girls who constantly fall in love for Krsna!)
Not only we need to know the entire transcendental knowledge given to us via disciplic succession of spiritual masters (who are mostly manjaris), but we have to satifsy Spiritual Master to satisfy Krsna to take us out of here! That's what He wants. Not only that, we have to adopt totaly humble attitude and serve him very humbly while in this body in this material world. This is the desire of Krsna, the system He personally established, the whole philosophy, the secret, the safest way. No uninvited guests in His world. We can try to bypass all this, but we condemn ourselves with that, working against the highest purpose of our own soul. I'm speaking this from personal experience. I had to swallow many bitter pills of my pride...
This is my humble attempt to share my current level of understanding with the knowledge I gathered so far, and I am far far away from 'knowing it all'! LOL! Please don't feel obliged to accept anything I wrote here. We must all do the research for ourselves but we can share what we got, can't we?
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Great post, Nirmama! Thank you for sharing all of this! I was going to share a response here but decided to keep it over at the other thread since it got so long, lol! You can check it out over there if you wish.
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PS: One thing I will say is that I'm relieved to know that sex may be the least important thing in the spiritual world... sometimes I think it's overrated as it is.
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Okay below is the long comment I initially didn't want to take up your space with, lol! Please feel free to delete it if it's taking up too much space! :)
I just finished reading your post and loved how you expressed things. Thank you for sharing your heart on this subject! :)
Because my particular path isn't strictly Hindu, there are a few areas I personally don't subscribe to, partly because even though they're in the Hindu context, they sound eerily similar to what I was taught in Catholicism and some other branches of Christianity, things which I truly believe that Yeshua (Jesus) came to free us from. Things like reliance upon religious rituals, regulations, requirements, priests, pastors, and gurus in order to bridge a (perceived) gap between us and God... that kind of approach I no longer subscribe to; and indeed, since I believe there is only one God, whether He be called Yahweh, Krishna, Allah, Mazda, or even George :), I still believe that He sent someone known as Yeshua (Jesus) to make the ultimate sacrifice for mankind so that this gap -- whether it was ever real or merely perceived -- would be erased forever.
In fact, as I'm currently reading up on all the scandal surrounding the Roman Catholic Church clergy as well as ISKCON, I have to wonder if perhaps the problem has been people trying too hard to reach God by their own effort rather than resting on what He has done for them through Yeshua. Just speculating here, but, perhaps putting themselves through all those ritualistic hurdles for so long left them with little strength to resist abusing children and other scandalous behavior they're known for. As the bible says in one place, "Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence." I'm pretty sure the folks over at ISKCON and the Catholic Church, what with their scandals -- could probably sympathize with that statement! It seems it's more likely to be the strict religious types who are falling, rather than the ones who rely solely on God's working in them for their spiritual advancement (generally speaking -- there are always going to be exceptions).
Just by way of clarifying my (admittedly unusual) position (and not to change anyone's mind), I've got some blog entries that deal directly with this which I had put up back when the blog was first starting out so as to hopefully reduce any confusion both Hindus and Christians (since I'm something of a mix) might have when visiting it:
❤ "Jesus and Religious Observances" (http://thedancedivine.blogspot.com/2011/12/ekadasi-jesus-and-religious-observances.html
)
❤ "An Important Disclaimer" (http://thedancedivine.blogspot.com/2011/11/important-disclaimer.html
)
❤ "On Religious Rituals"
(http://thedancedivine.blogspot.com/2011/06/on-religious-ritals.html
)
❤ "Reincarnation: Maybe Jesus ended that too!" (http://thedancedivine.blogspot.com/2011/11/reincarnation-maybe-jesus-ended-that.html
)
Also, just by way of further background, if you want to see where I was at leading up to where I am now spiritually, especially the freedom I had found in Jesus prior to discovering God's Krishna aspect, you can visit my other blog, "Outer Cyberia", which contains a lot in the way of spiritual posts pertaining to what's called Christian Universalism (a small branch of Christianity which believes that there is no "hell" and that all are saved): http://outercyberian.blogspot.com/p/contents.html
Thanks again for your post!!
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Sorry, this long posts are really getting hard to manipulate with. Here I go again:
PART ONE:
Thank you very much for your comment and the links! You're welcome to comment as much as you want, if you find anything interesting or challenging in my blog.
Yes, of course, I'm familiar with your standpoint regarding religions, religious organizations, religious rules, rituals etc. I've browsed through your blog quite a long ago. I also noticed that you don't want to hear anything about it, and that you've left such "system". Yet it didn't prevent me to write about it anyway..
Furthermore, the word 'Hindu' and 'Hindus' is a offensive term concocted by British invaders when they occupied India some 200 years ago. There are no Hindus, no Hindu culture nor anything like that. There is Bharata and Vedic culture only. The British however, successfully managed to submit Indian people under their boot and proclaimed Vedas - mythology. And everybody believed them! Just like you probably have fits of anger when someone mentions church or religious organizations, similarly my anger rises when someone says 'Hindu' because I know they (british) manipulated the finest jewel on this planet earth into a total crap! Therefore I am not Hindu, nor is anyone Hindu; those who call themselves like that are foolish people who accepted to be lied and cheated by those who threatened them. And we've seen this scenario on earth many many times.
What I'm suggesting is, if you really love someone (like Krsna), you're supposed to know Him. At least it sounds reasonable to me!! I was in Love with Krsna and still am, so I wanted to know Him more, in fact I wanted to know everything about Him! And I was guided to study Vedic literature where He Himself presents Himself in such an abundance... So, these literatures are not human concoction, but the causless Mercy of Your Beloved. The only purpose of Vedas is to understand God. Nothing more, nothing less. That is all I tried to tell you. If this is perceived as violence from my side to any degree, please forgive me.
Regarding so many SCANDALS in ISKCON and Catholic Church particularly, it is simply because they in ISKCON are not following instructions of Srila Prabhupada, neither catholics and christians follow instructions given by Jesus. Therefore their ultra fallen state is because they "fell from grace" of guru and God.
To accuse the rituals as being guilty for such situation is quite incorrect: we can't accuse the pot for distasteful meal. We must accuse the cooker or bad quality of ingredients or something. If only they do the rituals with right intention, they'd be protected!!! But they don't perform rituals as is prescribed or they're performing it for some of their personal interest, or just for the sake of the ritual. Generally speaking, religious rituals are given to the most fallen to help them rise to more civilized status, otherwise they remain simply - animals.
Religious stage is very necessary then. But of course, it is not the end of the story: it is supposed to help you trigger God consciousness and ultimately love of God. Religious rituals are then for purification purposes. So it is not true that religion is useless and/or enslaving factor in the society. The truth is that everything in this age is being abused due to misunderstanding and for the sake of somebody's personal material interests, up to the maximum! So those temporary corruption factors don't make the whole system corrupt. The system, at least Vedic one, is perfect because it comes from the Perfect, Krsna. I wouldn't know it if I haven't studied it very carefully. That is the reason why I spoke about this system of apparent duality found in Krsna: He is religious principles personified and debauchee at the same time...
PART TWO:
Oh, there IS hell, or rather hellish planets! lol! There are detailed descriptions in Srimad-bhagavatam about it! What's wrong with hell's existence? Everything exists in Krsna! (BTW, it is not eternal place as catholics suggest.) No use of trying to deny anything He allowed to be. If He found it to be necessity as a place of justice and mercy, then I agree with Him. I'd have to agree in the end even if I don't agree now, because He defeats me in all aspects!
That ISKCON that you read about is not the ISKCON that Srila Prabhupada established. They reorganized it according to their own interests, making new rules, concocted new philosophy to match their politics, disobeyed the instructions of their spiritual master who established it, and so they 'fell from grace' and now they're doing all kinds of most abominable acts that shake the society. They are now in the hands of Goddess Kali, and Miss Kali really loves to make fool of everyone, including so-called devotees of Krsna. She looks merciless, but actually by punishing us she is helping us to realize 'where' we're at, she helps us to wake up. This age is called Kali-yuga, the age of total darkness, ignorance, hypocrisy, heavy conflicts escalate over little disagreements. Krsna is testing our faith through such religious, actually faithless organizations. But that does not mean there is no bona fide spiritual master, that the pure and complete spiritual Knowledge is completely lost, that the Absolute Truth is unknown, or is changed or uncertain... All is going very well from spiritual perspective, but for us here on earth - it looks like total mess, doesn't it?
And about Jesus? Oh Jeeee.. it would be really too much if I start discussion about Jesus now, really! LOL! Hint: He (Jesus Christ) as a personality is present in Vedic literature, not under that name exactly, and actually I understood Jesus from the viewpoint of Vedas....He is recognized in the personality of Lord Baladeva (aka Balarama, Nityananda as Krsna's eternal buddy, different from Him, and yet non-different from Him, eh?)... :-O
I've been working overtime, I really have to cool down now..... :D
Thanks for your response, Nirmama, I can see that you feel very strongly about your position, as I do mine. :)
I'm glad you are still in love with God, and want to know Him more... Because I love Him as well, I cannot cast aside the sacrifice He made for mankind through Yeshua. What He did through Yeshua is going to seem offensive to any belief system that, like the Mosaic Old Covenant, wants to bypass that sacrifice and substitute a system of their own. It's totally understandable.
Again, thank you for your input on this! :)
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