Yes,Haribol, Krpamoya Prabhu; Pamho. AGTSP.
T; As you say, prabhu, it is not good that we too few devotees should be fighting . There is so much important work to be done. We must be mutually respectful. Still, a very great issue is there.
>
K; > I didn't know that HH Puri Goswami Maharaja had left
> behind a ritvik system. How will that work, exactly?
T; This info I have gotten second-hand from more than one source. Are you aware of the conversation between SP and PM in '77, in which PM says to SP; they will never accept it (referring to the rtivik arrangements left for us.) SP said; that it is up to Krsna! Now PM has shown what he thinks is Krsna's order! Mind you, it is not to PM that we must look, only to SP. He is quoted below and the message seems clear to me.
>
>K; I wrote on my website about my understanding of how the
> Ramanuja followers do their diksha. Strangely enough, its
> not quite ritvik, yet not quite how many in ISKCON currently
> understand diksha. Personally, I thought it was a helpful
> model.
>
>T; I shall look this up. Thank you.
>
>T; I used to beleive more or less as you, to my best
> knowledge, and was incredulous when I first encountered the
> awful truth behind the Bhavananadas of this world, and the
> lies told by Tamala, Satswarupa, Hamsadutta, and now the GBC
> and thousands of neophytes.
>
K; > Unfortunately I was introduced first-hand to the problems
> of our leadership in ISKCON from 1978 onwards. Here in
> England we had our fair share of disappointments.
T; As everywhere. Why not, then, use the simple ritvik system and avoid some of the problems?
> By the way, thank you for your long-standing services. Devotees do so much service, but are rarely recognized publicly for it.
>
T; The simple fact is, the GBC rubber-stamp system is totally
> without precedent, nontraditonal as it gets, and apparently
> failing, to boot. It is hypocritical to accuse Prabhupada of
> not being in full adherence to the sastra, yet Iskcon comes
> up with this rubber-stamp everybody-a-diksa-guru nonsense.
> We have 1001 gurus, and the newbies are scrambling to dive
> onboard the mundane gravy train which Iskcon
> promotes.
>
K; Yes, ISKCON - and much of what we do - is without precedent
> in history. Most times a disciple would start his own ashram
> and initiate his own disciples there, forming yet another
> branch of the sampradaya tree. Srila Prabhupada wanted
> something different, and it has not been easy to deliver
> that to him.
T; I am laughing, because that is the argument I usually use against the GBC system! ie. Non traditional as a fault! But yes, SP's strength is his unlimited capacity for mercy, hence we have tape recordings, women pujaris, etc etc. This non-traditionality is a higher mercy! So why do the Iskcon GBCs say that we ritvik types are not traditional, and then condemn us?? At least ritvik is not without precedent.
>
>K; Of course, the GBC are not rubber-stamping everybody are
> they? There are not 1001 gurus (perhaps you just said that
> to emphasise a point, didn't you?) More like 100 by my
> calculation.
>
>T; I have my dark side in humor... let's see. 100 gurus, roughly 40 fall downs, equals a 60 % chance of going back to Godhead, versus virtually 100% with SP. Hmmmm. What will the world choose?
T; Might as well rubber-stamp everybody! If everybody is a guru, problem solved!
> I have no doubt that over time, advanced pure devotees,
> qualified to give diksa etc. arise, for example; Gour
> Govinda Swami. Fine, just as Srila Prabhupada did, they must
> leave their master's ashramas for his disciples, and go
> off and start their own ashrama, etc. Right now, the
> neophyte disiples of my Godbrothers are running amok, even
> actually killing my Godbrothers and sisters, and lying like
> crazy, like a bunch of mad cultisists, gang members,
> complete with bombs and thugs. Can you deny this in front of
> the Deities??
>
> K; Well no, I cannot deny that some have done these things.
> That much is history. But 'right now'? And
> 'actually killing' - what are you referring to?
T; Sulocana, Adridarana, attempts to poison, bomb, beat, falsely accuse of rape, temples attacked, Jadurani beaten, Ameyatma chased by goons with bats, drowned children , GG Swami banned, Monkey on a Stick, etc etc. Most recently, Gopal Krsna and Jayapataka tried to have devotees accused of rape by paid-off criminals. Enough? The past is still here and crying for revenge!
T; > Prabhu, please bear with me as I list some relevant
> quotes;
>>
> "After 80 years, no one can be expected to live long.
>
> My life is almost ended. So you have to carry on, and
> THESE BOOKS WILL DO>
> EVERYTHING."
>
> SP 18/2/76
> > Reporter; "Who will succeed you when you die?"
> > SP;"I will never die!"
> > SP; "I will live forever from my books, and you
> will utilize." >
> Berkely>
> 17/7/75
>
>
> Reporter; "Are you training a successor?"
> > SP; "Yes, my Guru Maharajah is there."
> > 16/7/75
> > Guest;"Are
> > you planning a successor/"
> > SP; "It is already successful....My success is
> always there."
> > 1968
> > "There is nothing to be said new. Whatever I have to
> speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to understand
> it and continue your endeavor. Whether I am present or not
> present, it doesn't matter."
> >
> Srila Prabhupada, Vrndvana, 1977.
>
>
> So, it is evident that Srila Prabhupada continues to be
> fully available through his books. No need of any outside
> siksa, though Vaisnava siksa is always welcome. Also, no
> successor! Therefore, he is eternally the only diksa guru
> of Iskcon, and over time, the world will realize that he was
> the promised Messiah for all the world for the next 9,500
> years.
>
T; > Currently, disciples of my Godbrothers are kicking me out
> of the temples I helped create.
K; > I'm sorry to hear about this - which temples?
T; All of Canada!!! Courtesy Radhanatha disciple, Sadswarupa disciple, and Bhakti Marga Swami.
> and it is not that I preached ritvik there, but they grilled me like nazis after a communist. Spying, lying, distorting, using influenc, disgusting! I was disallowed from even attending harinama sankirtana for not accepting Radhanatha Swami as as good as God!
>
>T; Usurpers are denying Srila Prabhupada's disciples the
> right to follow his instructions without impediment, we are
> abused and attacked by speculators and those of little
> faith.
>k; I do believe that, according to our faith, we should all be
> allowed to serve Srila Prabhupada as we currently see fit.
> Naturally, that also means that those who do not follow the
> ritvik line of thought may also be allowed to serve him
> according to their faith and understanding.
T; Agreed, however unauthorized gurus cannot be abided. Disagreements will be there, differences in opinion, etc. that is natural. But we must protect the innocent.
>
T; Our Iskcon contributions
> are wasted on legal battles, salaries to mixed devotees, and
> paying off abused children.
>
>K; Yes, much money has been wasted in fighting - and some has
> just been plain wasted.
>
> >T; My spritual master's temples are filled with those who
> deny Prabhupada; madhyama adhikaris perhaps some, but mostly
> kanisthas over- attached to argument and speculation and
> sectarianism, who think this is Krsna consciousness, who
> follow teachers who pretend to be as good as God but are
> still full of anarthas, yet accept worship like they were
> Rupa Goswami!
>
>K; I think it depends where you go in the world. Maybe here in
> England is slightly different so I don't exactly see
> what you see?
> >
>T; So yes, there is much to discuss. However, we have likely
> heard these arguments over and over. Have you seen the
> quotes above, before, prabhu?
> K; Oh yes, all those quotes - many times for many years. Other
> quotes which express different points also.
>
>T; I have no desire to be an enemy to you at all! Your
> preaching work is highly commendable in so many ways. I am
> happy to discuss, but not if it simply means we insult each
> other, etc! I see you are not of that sort. Jaya! Thank
> you.
>
>K; Well, you know, I try not to be prabhu, especially with
> someone who loves and serves Srila Prabhupada. Vaishnava
> aparadha is the killer of our spiritual life yet these days
> it seems we have entire websites devoted to it in the name
> of 'Truth.'
>
T; Thanking you for your kind and tolerant attention in these
> regards.
> My obeisances and well wishes! ; HKHR
>
> Tamohara dasa
K; > And my obeisances to you too Prabhu. I wish you well and
> have nothing to gain from arguing at all. There will be
> different devotees serving our spiritual master in different
> ways but even the longest and most convincing debates will
> not change the hearts, or the faith, of devotees. Lord
> Krishna Himself makes our faith strong in different ways.
>
>
> Your servant
>
> Kripamoya Das
>
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