More on Women as a Class

A Response to "Who is Genuine"

BY: SHYAMASUNDARA DASA

Grantharaj Prabhu wrote:

"From this episode we can see that in Vedic times women were educated. Also of note is that Draupadi was free to speak openly and in front of men and men who were her seniors. She also did not keep her face or hair covered. The practice of purdah and the repression of women was introduced by the mleccha hoards that invaded Northern India during the last millennium."

This is in contradiction to the following statements of Srila Prabhupada and the Mahabharata. But before going to those quotations I would like to comment on the education of women in Vedic culture. Certainly they were educated, it was the duty of the husband and his family to continue the education of the young girl who enters into the husbands "ashrama." Why, because for the girl, Manu Samhita 2.67 tells us, vivaha(marriage) is equivalent to upanayanam for the boy, beginning of entry into Vedic culture. And, that all the duties performed by the girl in the ashrama of her pati guru are equivalent to those of a brahmacari in the gurukula.

In the grhasta ashrama of the husband, his main disciple is his wife and he instructs and guides her as the pati-guru. And when she was in the ashrama of her father she was instructed there by her seniors. Or, later in the ashrama of her sons, like Devahuti was instructed by Kapiladeva.

We read in the biography of Raghavendra Swami, a revered saint in the Madhva Sampradaya, that while in his purva ashrama he was studying in Kumbhakonam and every evening when he returned home he would teach his wife what he had learned that day (unless it was a topic forbidden for women), so that his wife was also vastly learned by the grace of her pati guru.

As for speaking out before seniors, there is a cultured decorum followed by males what to speak of females when one is before one's seniors. In the above case of Krsna, Arjuna and Devaki they were all on very familiar terms. So familiar that Arjuna in the 11th chapter of the Gita apologized to Krsna for his familiarity because he is aware that familiarity breeds contempt and he hoped that he had not crossed the line. From the way Grantharaj Prabhu is writing, it appears that he is advocating that women should behave indecorously like some pushy, loud mouthed, fish monger's wife. I hope my perception of his meaning is wrong. To understand how Draupadi actually dealt with her husbands and why they were so devoted to her that they killed the whole Kaurava dynasty to defend her honor, the reader should studyDraupadi's instructions to Satyabhama.

Draupadi was a highly cultured lady the likes of whom have not been seen on this planet in thousands of years. She was not a coarse, selfish, pushy woman. Ladies, if they want to become person Bhagavatams, should emulate the behavior and teaching of Draupadi, a prominent personality in the Bhagavatam who preached by her impeccable behavior.

Returning now to the quotations of Srila Prabhupada and Mahabharata that stand in direct contradiction to Grantharaj Prabhu's statements regarding invading mllecha hoards, purdah, and modest dress, etc.

In the following Srila Prabhupada repudiates the popular misconception pushed by ISKCON Feminists that certain Vedic cultural norms are actually Islamic impositions. They are not, they are Vedic, and followed by many cultures in remote antiquity and ultimately influenced Islam, not the other way around.

"Shyness is a particular extra-natural beauty of the fair sex, and it commands respect from the opposite sex. This custom was observed even during the days of the Mahabharata, i.e., more than five thousand years ago. It is only the less intelligent persons not well versed in the history of the world who say that observance of separation of female from male is an introduction of the Mohammedan period in India. This incident from the Mahabharata period proves definitely that the ladies of the palace observed strict parda (restricted association with men), and instead of coming down in the open air where Lord Krsna and others were assembled, the ladies of the palace went up on the top of the palace and from there paid their respects to Lord Krsna by showers of flowers."

(Srimad Bhagavatam 1.10.16 purport)

In the following quote from Mahabharata, Vysadeva describes that Draupadi was very well covered. The Ganguli and MN Dutta edition give same translation.

"Janamejaya said, 'O thou possessed of ascetic wealth, what did those high-souled ones, my grandsires, the illustrious Pandavas, do, after obtaining the kingdom of Indraprastha? How did their wife Draupadi obey them all? How is it also that no dissensions arose amongst those illustrious rulers of men, all attached to one wife, viz., Krishna? O thou of the wealth of asceticism, I wish to hear everything in detail regarding the behaviour towards one another of those rulers of men after their union with Krishna.'

Vaisampayana said, 'Those scorchers of foes, the Pandavas, having obtained their kingdom, at the command of Dhritarashtra, passed their days in joy and happiness at Khandavaprastha with Krishna. And Yudhishthira. endued with great energy and ever adhering to truth, having obtained the sovereignty, virtuously ruled the land, assisted by his brothers. And the sons of Pandu, endued with great wisdom and devoted to truth and virtue, having vanquished all their foes, continued to live there in great happiness. And those bulls among men, seated on royal seats of great value, used to discharge all the duties of government. And one day, while all those illustrious heroes were so seated, there came unto them the celestial Rishi Narada, in course of his wanderings. Beholding the Rishi, Yudhishthira offered him his own handsome seat. And after the celestial Rishi had been seated, the wise Yudhishthira duly offered him the Arghya with his own hands. And the king also informed the Rishi of the state of his kingdom. The Rishi accepting the worship, became well-pleased, and eulogising him with benedictions, commanded the king to take his seat. Commanded by the Rishi, the king took his seat. Then the king sent word unto Krishna (in the inner apartments) of the arrival of the illustrious one. Hearing of the Rishi's arrival Draupadi, purifying herself properly, came with a respectful attitude to where Narada was with the Pandavas.The virtuous princess of Panchala, worshipping the celestial Rishi's feet, stood with joined hands before him, properly veiled, The illustrious Narada, pronouncing various benedictions on her, commanded the princess to retire.After Krishna had retired, the illustrious Rishi, addressing in private all the Pandavas with Yudhishthira at their head, said, 'The renowned princess of Panchala is the wedded wife of you all. Establish a rule amongst yourselves so that disunion may not arise amongst you. There were, in former days, celebrated throughout the three worlds, two brothers named Sunda and Upasunda living together and incapable of being slain by anybody unless each slew the other. They ruled the same kingdom, lived in the same house, slept on the same bed, sat on the same seat, and ate from the same dish. And yet they killed each for the sake of Tilottama. Therefore, O Yudhishthira, preserve your friendship for one another and do that which may not produce disunion amongst you.'"

(Mahabharata Adi Parva, SECTION 210, (Rajya-labha Parva)

More on Women as a Class

BY: KRISHNA DASA

The title of the article by Grantaraj das, "Who's Genuine", implies that our Srila Prabhupada is NOT genuine. Srila Prabhupada is clearly talking about Draupadi as a 'mild natured woman' and continues along that vein. But of course the Gaudiya Math knows better. That is why the Narayana camp call their female devotees 'didi' or 'sister'. This is not the teaching of our Srila Prabhupada and certainly not the teaching of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, who very much segregated the men and women. Respecting women devotees is one thing, but to worship them as guru is another thing altogether.

This person Grantaraj , as far as I am aware, may be a devotee who was initiated in ISKCON by the name Grantapriya das. He lived at the Brisbane temple for a few years, as brahmacari, before he got married to Vrinda. They both left ISKCON very soon after getting married (mid 90's) and some time later joined the Gaudiya math of Govinda Maharaja, but they may now be more affiliated with the Narayana Math. These facts should be confirmed. You will also notice that he is not giving even one quote from Srila Prabhupada. Everything he says is contrary to what Srila Prabhupada has stated in his Bhagavatam purport.

I personally have absolutely nothing against the idea/principle that women can preach and give lectures in the temples. There is a great shortage of sannyasis and even brahmacaris in this region, so it has been a long standing practice for learned female devotees to give the Srimad Bhagavatam class, especially at New Govardhan. My only concern is the issue of whether women should hold the position of diksha guru. Whenever Srila Prabhupada has stated that he wants all of his disciples to become guru, he does not mention diksha guru. So, it is pretty obvious that he only meant siksha guru, and these are some of his words of encouragement . Because after all, it is the guru's business to also encourage his disciples, not just to chastise them.

Srila Prabhupada:

"Regarding lecturing by woman devotees: I have informed you that in the service of the Lord there is no distinction of caste or creed, color, or sex. In the Bhagavad-gita, the Lord especially mentions that even a woman who has taken seriously is also destined to reach Him. We require a person who is in the knowledge of Krishna, that is the only qualification of a person speaking. It doesn't matter what he is. Materially a woman may be less intelligent than a man, but spiritually there is no such distinction. Because spiritually everyone is pure soul. In the absolute plane there is no such gradation of higher and lower. If a woman can lecture nicely and to the point, we should hear her carefully. That is our philosophy. But if a man can speak better than a woman, the man should be given first preference. But even though a woman is less intelligent, a sincere soul should be given proper chance to speak, because we want so many preachers, both men and women."

(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Jayagovinda - Feb 8, 1968)

But so far, no one has given us even one quote where Srila Prabhupada has said that we should have female diksha gurus. In India the term guru is very common. Any teacher can be referred to as guru, and we see this especially in relation to students of music, who refer to their teacher as their guru. Consequently, this is why most, if not all of the famous Indian musicians are called 'pandit'. So maybe we should also give a similar title to any successful women preachers (teachers) . Wouldn't that sound nice, Her Holiness Pandit Urmila devi dasi. But unfortunately, Pandit is reserved for the male bodied teachers. Maybe there is some other honorific title which can be awarded to our great female preachers.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Replies

Tamohara dasa ADMIN. February 11, 2013 1:44

More on Women as a Class

BY: KRISHNA DASA

The title of the article by Grantaraj das, "Who's Genuine", implies that our Srila Prabhupada is NOT genuine. Srila Prabhupada is clearly talking about Draupadi as a 'mild natured woman' and continues along that vein. But of course the Gaudiya Math knows better. That is why the Narayana camp call their female devotees 'didi' or 'sister'. This is not the teaching of our Srila Prabhupada and certainly not the teaching of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, who very much segregated the men and women. Respecting women devotees is one thing, but to worship them as guru is another thing altogether.

This person Grantaraj , as far as I am aware, may be a devotee who was initiated in ISKCON by the name Grantapriya das. He lived at the Brisbane temple for a few years, as brahmacari, before he got married to Vrinda. They both left ISKCON very soon after getting married (mid 90's) and some time later joined the Gaudiya math of Govinda Maharaja, but they may now be more affiliated with the Narayana Math. These facts should be confirmed. You will also notice that he is not giving even one quote from Srila Prabhupada. Everything he says is contrary to what Srila Prabhupada has stated in his Bhagavatam purport.

I personally have absolutely nothing against the idea/principle that women can preach and give lectures in the temples. There is a great shortage of sannyasis and even brahmacaris in this region, so it has been a long standing practice for learned female devotees to give the Srimad Bhagavatam class, especially at New Govardhan. My only concern is the issue of whether women should hold the position of diksha guru. Whenever Srila Prabhupada has stated that he wants all of his disciples to become guru, he does not mention diksha guru. So, it is pretty obvious that he only meant siksha guru, and these are some of his words of encouragement . Because after all, it is the guru's business to also encourage his disciples, not just to chastise them.

Srila Prabhupada:

"Regarding lecturing by woman devotees: I have informed you that in the service of the Lord there is no distinction of caste or creed, color, or sex. In the Bhagavad-gita, the Lord especially mentions that even a woman who has taken seriously is also destined to reach Him. We require a person who is in the knowledge of Krishna, that is the only qualification of a person speaking. It doesn't matter what he is. Materially a woman may be less intelligent than a man, but spiritually there is no such distinction. Because spiritually everyone is pure soul. In the absolute plane there is no such gradation of higher and lower. If a woman can lecture nicely and to the point, we should hear her carefully. That is our philosophy. But if a man can speak better than a woman, the man should be given first preference. But even though a woman is less intelligent, a sincere soul should be given proper chance to speak, because we want so many preachers, both men and women."

(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Jayagovinda - Feb 8, 1968)

But so far, no one has given us even one quote where Srila Prabhupada has said that we should have female diksha gurus. In India the term guru is very common. Any teacher can be referred to as guru, and we see this especially in relation to students of music, who refer to their teacher as their guru. Consequently, this is why most, if not all of the famous Indian musicians are called 'pandit'. So maybe we should also give a similar title to any successful women preachers (teachers) . Wouldn't that sound nice, Her Holiness Pandit Urmila devi dasi. But unfortunately, Pandit is reserved for the male bodied teachers. Maybe there is some other honorific title which can be awarded to our great female preachers.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

This reply was deleted.