KESAVA KRISHNA DASA STATES THAT MAYA AND THE ILLUSORY ENERGY ARE NOT OUR ENEMY, SHE’S TOO KIND AND HELPFUL TO BE AN ENEMY. OUR ENTIRE DIALOGUE IS BELOW.
Posted by Jagat guru Dasa on October 31, 2021 at 8:08
Kesava Krsna Dasa
Oct. 24 at 6:12 am
Your opinions, thoughts and realisations count.
As long as your opinions are based on guru, sadhu and sastra, you’re entitled to have your say.
Your opinions may vary and differ from the opinions of others, but that’s fine. It’s up to us how tolerant we are.
Jagat-Guru Dasa
Oct. 25 at 1:48 am
NEEMA PATEL, YOU MAKE SUCH AN IMPORTANT POINT IN THE NEXT TO LAST PARAGRAPH OF YOUR POST, THAT I COULD NOT RESIST COMMENTING ON IT.
You say, “whatever so called OPINIONS we have either they are originated through the Guru and thus considered bonafide from the Shastric perspective because the Guru will not say anything that's not in the shastras already.... That’s a PERFECT assessment of guru, sadhu and sastra. Guru, sadhu and sastra are not anyone’s opinion, they are spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
How can anyone KNOW whether his/her opinion is based on guru, sadhu and sastra? MAYBE KESAVA KRISHNA CAN TELL US. The guru does not speak anyone’s opinion, the sadhu and all the acharyas down the line of disciplic succession speak the same thing WITHOUT changing a single word, and the sastras originate from the Supreme Personality of Godhead and consist of Transcendental Knowledge, NOT anyone’s opinion. What can the OPINIONS and THOUGHTS of the fallen MUDHAS of this age of Kali possibly have to do with guru, sadhu and sastra? After you hear from guru and sastra you may form your opinion and think whatever you like, but YOUR opinion and thoughts are NOT the Practice of KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS. Krishna consciousness is Sanatana Dharma, the ETERNAL RELIGION.
Listen to what Srila Prabhupada has to say.
PRABHUPADA: Some persons are asking my Opinion on ''female gurus in iskcon''. The fact is we're NOT to have PERSONAL OPINIONS in KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS. We follow guru, shastra, sadhu [predesessor acharayas]. The real question is what are the QUALIFICATIONS for being a guru whether male or female.
Real guru would not talk differently. Some guru says that "In my Opinion, you should like this," and some guru will say, "In my Opinion you'll do this" -- they are NOT GURU; they are ALL RASCALS. Guru has NO "Own Opinion." Guru has got only ONE OPINION, the same opinion which was expressed by Krsna, Vyasadeva or Narada or Arjuna or Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu or the Gosvamis. You'll find the same thing. Five thousand years ago, Lord Sri Krsna spoke Bhagavad-gita and Vyasadeva wrote it, recorded it. Vyasadeva does not say that "It is MY OPINION." Vyasadeva writes, sri bhagavan uvaca: "Whatever is in writing, it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead." He's not giving his OWN OPINION. Sri bhagavan uvaca. Therefore, he is guru. He is not MISINTERPRETING the words of Krsna. He's giving as it is. Just like a bearer, peon. Somebody has written you a letter, the peon has got the letter. It does not mean he has to correct it or edit it or make addition. No. He'll present it as it is. That is his duty. Then HE IS GURU. He's honest. Similarly, guru CANNOT be TWO. REMEMBER THAT. The person may be DIFFERENT, but the message is the SAME. Therefore, guru is ONE.
Five thousand years or five millions of years, what was spoken by the Supreme God or Guru, the present Guru ALSO will say the SAME THING. That is Guru. That is BONAFIDE Guru. Otherwise, he's NOT Guru. Simple definition. Guru CANNOT CHANGE any word of the predecessor.
Ref. VedaBase => Lecture, "What is a Guru?" -- August 22, 1973, London
Kesava Krsna Dasa
Jagat-Guru Dasa The words of Srila Prabhupada as quoted here speak for themselves. No need to add anything. However, our devotee-world would be an empty place if no one expressed their opinions, thoughts and realisations pertinent to everyday practicalities.
Srila Prabhupada frequently asked for the opinion of his disciples. It was the medical opinion of a doctor that made Srila Prabhupada do daily walks for health. Devotees have a right to voice concerns about institutional inconsistencies and so forth. We’re not robots. All thoughts and realisations pertaining to what are the acarya’s core teachings are necessary and functional.
Jagat-Guru Dasa
You say; our devotee-world would be an empty place if no one expressed their opinions, thoughts and realizations pertinent to everyday practicalities. But Guru, Sadhu and Sastra are not everyday practicalities. You may have your opinions and your thoughts, but that’s not the way to access guru, sadhu and sastra.
You say; Srila Prabhupada frequently asked for the opinion of his disciples. Yes, once in a while he would ask a QUESTION to his disciples to find out if they understood the subject matter they were discussing. I wouldn’t say he was asking for their OPINION. I never heard him ask anyone for their opinion on Guru, Sadhu and Sastra. You say; he accepted the medical advise to walk every day for health. That’s professional advice, that’s not an opinion.
You say; devotees have a right to voice concerns about institutional inconsistencies and so forth. And I agree, but your CONCERNS are not your OPINIONS.
You say; All thoughts and realizations pertaining to what are the acharya’s core teachings are necessary and functional... yes, but again, you express your CONCERNS about your Acharyas’ core teachings, NOT your opinions and thoughts, they have already transpired in your mind. Now you are correctly expressing CONCERNS.
Also, you must remember that there are NO OPINIONS in Krishna consciousness (Prabhupada’s comment above). Think about what you write. Don’t think that people who read your words are not going to THINK about what you’re saying, Neema Patel did, and so did I. Although, most often I would not comment either.
Remember, YOU are the one who has kept this going, I wanted to stop after I made my first comment. But you kept going even after hearing direct quotes from Srila prabhupada confirming my comments to you were TRUE. So don’t ACCUSE ME of making my responses PERSONAL, I am only telling you the TRUTH.
Which is your ISKCON GURU’S RESPONSIBILITY.
I will give you the answer you’ve been waiting for in my next post, regarding the war on Maya, in Srila Prabhupada’s words.
Hare Krishna!
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada
Kesava Krsna Dasa
Jagat-Guru Dasa Put it this way. What is absolute, sabda-brahmana, is not subject to opinion-making. The practical application of living life in pursuance of the truth is nuanced and hence there are pratyaksha and anumana considerations in support.
I’m not a fool to think that everyone reading my posts will agree.
You may write your thesis on Maya. It’s easy to be selective and quote Srila Prabhupada the way WE want. Your quotes need to balance with what was provided in a previous discussion.
Jagat Guru Dasa
Sabda brahmana is, “transcendental sound vibration,” so, I agree, it is not subject to Opinion-making.
You say; The practical application of living life in pursuance of the truth is nuanced, nuanced in WHICH WAY? You don’t say.
And hence there are pratyaksha and anumana considerations in support. SUCH AS WHAT???? In support of WHAT? Again, YOU DON’T SAY.
You say: Your quotes need to balance with what was provided in a previous discussion. The TRUTH is Automatically Balanced.
Remember, YOU DELETED all my responses and your comments to the previous discussion. This is where I wanted to stop my dialogue with you. And I thought you had decided to stop also when YOU deleted all responses and comments that were made. But I was wrong, YOU posted the comments below addressing me again.
Kesava Krsna Dasa
Jagat-Guru Dasa: That’s the problem. Not making sense of what Srila Prabhupada said. Where did he say that Maya was our enemy? Arjuna still had affection for those he killed. He didn’t hate them. How could he hate his guru Dronacarya? How could he hate Bhisma and others? He did his duty to kill and that doesn’t mean hating them. So, show me where Maya is the enemy of the devotees?
Kesava Krsna Dasa
Because when Srila Prabhupada says that we’re declaring war against the illusory energy, it creates the impression that Maya must be our enemy when she isn’t.
JAGAT GURU DASA:
So I responded with the following quote from Srila Prabhupada, which you had already DELETED. IT’S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THE COMMENT BELOW IS A PART OF MY RESPONSE TO THE LAST SENTENCE IN THE COMMENT YOU ADDRESSED TO ME.
I remember because it was the last thing I wrote and I remembered where I got the quote from. Here it is again.
Jagat Guru Dasa
Prabhupāda: No. It will not depend on opinion. Opinion... What is the value of OPINION if the people are all ASSES? There is no opinion. One should take as it is enjoined in the śāstra. No opinion. What is the use of taking opinion of an ASS? So, the people are trained up just like dogs and asses, then what is the use of their opinion? If you are to enforce, you must do like this. Just like when we introduced this "No illicit sex." I Never Cared for their opinion. with opinion..., immediately there will be discussion. And what is the use of taking their opinion? That is the defect of Western civilization. Vox populi, taking opinion of the public. But what is the value of this public? Drunkards, Smokers, Meat-eaters, Woman-hunters. What is the... They are NOT First-class men. So what is the use of such Third-Class, Fourth-Class men's opinion? We do NOT advocate such opinion. What Kṛṣṇa said, that is Standard, that's all. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, and His version is FINAL. No Opinion, No democracy. When you go to a physician, doctor, for treatment, the physician does not place his prescription for opinion of other patients = "Now I am prescribing this medicine for this gentleman. Now give me your opinion." Does he do that? NO!
Kesava Krishna, you may think you have a mind of your own and Therefore you have a right to your opinion. THINK AGAIN!
Prabhupāda: They have mind, but that is DEPRECATED mind. Just like MADMAN, he has got his mind, but what is the VALUE of that Mind? You are not going to take opinion of a madman. He has his mind, but he is a MADMAN. a Mūḍha. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna [Bg. 7.15]. His knowledge has been taken away. The mind being, what is called, in DISORDERED condition, there is NO VALUE of his Opinion.
Kesava Krsna Dasa
Jagat-Guru Dasa That’s okay. Now you need to balance this quote with the fact that Srila Prabhupada often asked his disciples for their opinions. Practicalities! There’s no wormy in sharing realisations and discussing them. Maya or Durga happenens to be Krishna’s sister in lila. All pure devotees are our best friend and she is no exception. If you feel threatened by her, that’s your interpretation. You still haven’t showed me anything where Srila Prabhupada said that His sister is an enemy of ours. A declaration of war can be made between loved ones. A declaration of war against the illusory energy doesn’t make her an enemy. It’s simply a warning not to falter in spiritual life. It can be understood according to one’s level of realisation and yes, different opinions or realisations are valid within the scope of guru, sadhu and sastra. There isn’t just one myopic view of Srila Prabhupada’s statements.
Are you willing to accept that someone can have a different interpretation of Srila Prabhupada’s words than you do?
Jagat-Guru Dasa
Maya or Durga may be Krishna’s sister in Lila, but each creation has a purpose and a role to play. Yes, all pure devotees are our best friends, but MAYA is not a pure devotee. She has a different purpose. She’s not here to recruit devotees for Krishna. That’s what pure devotees are here for.
You say; “If you feel threatened by her, that’s your interpretation.”
I don’t feel threatened by maya, that’s YOUR interpretation.
You say; “You still haven’t showed me anything where Srila Prabhupada said that His SISTER is an enemy of ours.”
Srila Prabhupada has never said that MAYA IS HIS SISTER!!! But I will show you before we close this dialogue that MAYA IS OUR ENEMY.
You say; “A declaration of war against the illusory energy doesn’t make her an enemy.” It’s simply a warning not to falter in spiritual life.
Whatever you hear makes no difference to you, your reality is whatever you’re your deprecated mind says it is.
You say; It can be understood according to one’s level of realization, (we will let the readers determine what level of realization YOU are in.) and yes, different opinions or realizations are valid within the scope of guru, sadhu and sastra. (where is it stated in scripture that YOUR OPINION and whatever you realize is VALID, in the first place? What to speak of VALID within the scope of guru, sadhu and sastra, which equals to THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, Krishna.
You say; There isn’t just one myopic view of Srila Prabhupada’s statements.
(are you describing Srila Prabhupada’s statements as lacking in foresight or discernment, or narrow in perspective and without concern for broader implications. Myopia describes You MORE ACCURATELY.
If you describe someone as Myopic, you are critical of them because they seem unable to realize that their actions might have negative consequences (are you not describing yourself). But Srila Prabhupada’s statements have the POSITIVE CONSEQUENCES of LIBERATION.
You say; Are you willing to accept that someone can have a different interpretation of Srila Prabhupada’s words than you do?
Yes, I accept that someone may have a different interpretation of Srila Prabhupada’s words than I do. But I am not interpreting the words Srila Prabhupada speaks. I am REPEATING the same words Srila Prabhupada speaks. If you interpret the words, that means you want to change the meaning of the words, that is against the rules of the acaryas, it is called Arsha Prayogya. That’s what we have been doing for more than 50 years to Srila Prabhupada’s books.
We have been changing the wording in all his books, which is having an effect on the purity of this Krishna Consciousness movement.
That’s why in many places the people inside the movement are becoming more and more like the people in the society outside the movement. And the society outside the movement is mainly ATHEISTIC AND DEMONIC.
I willingly cooperated with maya for many years until I slowly began to see the misery and pain I was creating around me, including myself.
So gradually I began to focus on the rules and regulations of Krishna Consciousness and I began to practice the SCIENCE of Krishna Consciousness in the Laboratory of my OWN LIFE. But maya kept working on me and I kept falling into illusion, but I never forgot Krishna and kept going back to my laboratory. Until finally the TIME came when Krishna took everything away from me, and I realized I had nothing left but Krishna. Somehow, I knew that this was Krishna’s doing, and I kept moving forward. Since that day Krishna has carried what I don’t have and has provided what I need. All the experiments I have practiced in my laboratory have revealed Krishna more and more to me. and gradually Maya has disappeared from my life. Where ever Krishna Is, maya cannot stay. Krishna Is a person, He is alive and he communicates with his devotee. Thanks be to Krishna and Srila Prabhupada’s instructions, which I have now been working with for more than 50 years.
I don’t have any problems with maya anymore, maya makes her adjustments according to the development of the person she’s working on, or with. Maya tries to allure me everyonce in a while, with what Maya knows I NEVER refused before. But now I say, WITHOUT HESITATION, No thanks, I’ve been there before. I no longer have a desire for that.
When Srila Prabhupada told us to declare war on maya, I understood what he meant. I know we don’t declare war on FRIENDS. I understood that when we declare war on someone, they are our enemy. But I’ll make a point of it to look for a quote from Srila Prabhupada, and I’ll pass it on to you.
SRILA PRABHUPADA
States in Bhagavat gita that MAYA is illusion; The energy of the Supreme Lord that DELUDES living entities into forgetfulness of their spiritual nature and of God… Glossary
Letter to: Balai
Maya and living entities are different energies of Krishna and all of them are eternal. Maya is acting under the direction of Krishna but her task is to PUNISH the revolted living entities; Maya cannot go to Krishna means that Maya's influence cannot be active in the presence of Krishna. The darkness has no existence in the presence of sunlight, similarly Maya cannot exist in the presence of Krishna. As darkness and light exist eternally, similarly, Maya and Krishna exist eternally, but Maya has no existence
This will save you from the attack of Maya.
Letter to: Brahmananda
Dated: Aug. 4, 1967
Location: Vrindaban
Letter to: Brahmananda
My dear Brahmananda,
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated 8/3/67. Don't be afraid of my being attacked by maya. When there is fight between two belligerent parties, it is always expected that there will sometimes be reverses. Your country and the western world is mostly under the grip of Maya and the modes of nature in passion and ignorance, and my declaration of WAR AGAINST MAYA is certainly a great battle. Maya saw me very successful within one year, saw, that I got so many sincere young flowers like yourself and others, so it was a great defeat to the activities of maya: western country youngsters giving up illicit sex, intoxication, meat eating and gambling is certainly a great reverse in the activities of maya. Therefore, she took advantage of my old age weakness and gave me a death dash. But Krishna saved me; therefore, we should thank more Krishna than eulogize maya. So far, my present health is concerned I think I am improving; at least I am taking my lunch better than in N.Y. So as soon as I am a little fit to return to the field of battle I shall again be in your midst.
Srila Prabhupada often compared Maya to the prison warden. We can be friends with him (her, in this case) and improve our PRISON HOUSE conditions, but this kind of friendship was rejected. We have to seek pardon from the king, not from the warden.
He is not OUR friend. "War on Maya" then means saying NO to warden's enticements like better food, better cells etc. Maya says "stay here, I'll take care of you" and we say "NO, I'm leaving". And then she will test our determination and we would have to resist the temptations. IT’S A WAR, even though we have nothing against our opponent.
PRABHUPADA: People don’t want to Hear the truth because they don’t want their ILLUSIONS destroyed.
KRISHNA KESAVA who openly admits that MAYA and her ILLUSURY ENERGY are his friend, is a perfect example of this. The reason why so many are doing this is because they are actually servants of Maya, and that’s ok, you can serve whomever you want. The question is, What are you doing in Srila Prabhupad’s Krishna consciousness movement? This movement is for serving Lord Krishna, becoming Krishna Conscious, and returning back home back to Godhead. Not for the Service of Maya or any demigod worship. Practice Krishna Consciousness, or, go create your own movement.
The upper leadership of ISKCON are also servants of maya because they pronounced themselves Uttama Adhikari and Diksa guru without HIGHER AUTHORITY.
Bhaktivinoda Thakura Says: Those who accept the position of guru when they are not authorized go to Hell, and their disciples go with them.
One can only become diksa spiritual master when he is ordered by his predecessor Bonafide Spiritual Master. There is absolutely no direct order from His Divine Grace for any of His disciples to initiate their own disciples. This means that those initiating their own disciples are in fact cheating and those who are accepting these cheaters as Authorized guru are only being cheated.
Kesava Krishna is the result of this kind of cheating.
The attack of the Hare Krishna Temple and KILLING of devotees in Bangladesh is also the result of this kind of cheating. The leadership of ISKCON is turning Krishna consciousness into a sectarian religion, by spreading misleading and biased information saying that Krishna temples are HINDU TEMPLES to attract Hindus and their money. The CHASTISING OF DEVOTEES WHO SAY THEY ARE NOT HINDU is also the result of this kind of Cheating. We are SANATANA DHARMA, the ETERNAL RELIGION not HINDUS.
I know Many of you will find this unpalatable to hear, but the truth should be spoken even if it is unpalatable… Hare Krishna!
Your servant and well wisher
Jagat Guru Dasa
Tamohara dasa on November 12, 2021 at 21:11
One thing to point out, suggestive; Sri Caitanya sometimes assumed the identity of Durga in His lilas. He only assumed the lilas of Vishnu avataras, or very exalted and dear pure devotees. C.C. of Srila Krsna dasa Kaviraja and Caitanya Bhagavata of Vrndavana Dasa
Also Srila Bhaktivinoda in Mayapura Mahatmya describes Mahaprabhu meeting Lord Siva in Rudra-dvipa and his wife Praudha Maya devi, and how she was so happy, as she is more often feeling abandoned because of her duties to put the souls in Maya. But she is a pure devotee of Krsna, so no question but that she is the friend of the living entities who are sometimes described as her children. Same story is in Caitanya Caritamrta.
may be able to find that...bit later
I reposted the reference (below) to more on this matter, posted couple days ago in the forum blog section here. Maybe that will prove eye opening more?
Tamohara dasa on November 12, 2021 at 20:59
https://puredevoteeseva.ning.com/forum/topics/the-ganges-and-goddes...
Jagat guru Dasa on November 12, 2021 at 19:44
Tamohara Dasa; I don't see the comment I made yesterday nor all the verses you presented in response to the comment I made yesterday, where I say, "I am still learning, so I would not be SHOCKED if you showed me a verse or a quote where Srila Prabhupada refers to Maya as a Friend or a Pure devotee."
I am familiar with the verses you presented, and I reread them ALL. I still did not see a single verse or purport where SRILA PRABHUPADA STATES that Maya is our Friend or a Pure devotee. Therefore, I want to elaborate a little more on my Simple statement, because, I don't want to be MIS-INTERPRETED.
I'll start by saying, I am not disputing what the Supreme Personality of Godhead is saying in those verses. Both, the Internal Potency of the Lord and the External Potency of the Lord are His servants, and I accept that. But the Lord DOES NOT say that these Potencies which are non-different from Krishna, are also SERVANTS of The Living Entities. One may say that Yoga Maya is our friend, because, Simply by scientifically understanding this supreme potency, one can immediately achieve the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
This Internal Potency of the Lord has a Covering Potency, known as Maha-Maya, who rules the material world. This is the potency of the Lord, MAHA MAYA, THE ILLUSORY ENERGY OF THE LORD, which I am referring to in this present discussion. The Lord CLEARLY tells us that she bewilders the entire universe, and thus everyone within the universe falsely identifies himself with the material body. If YOU want to forget the Lord Maya will HELP YOU. She will keep you entangled in the material energy and the cycle of Birth and Death, Disease and Old Age. This is the service Maya provides for Lord Krishna. This is the service your friend Maya will provide for you.
People are cheating themselves who say Maya is their friend, because, Maya was created by Krishna. That's why Krishna gave us intelligence and instructions to follow.
Everything Krishna spoke, Srila Prabhupada commented on. I still say, If you find a verse where Srila Prabhupada says, MahaMaya is our Friend, or, a Pure devotee, I'd like to see it.
Jagat guru Dasa on November 10, 2021 at 20:08
I think I also referred to the upper leadership of ISKCON as servants of Maya in the closing portion of my post above.
Tdasa reply; Yes, i quoted your post there. The current gang are thieves.
Jagat guru Dasa on November 10, 2021 at 20:01
I have never read a single text, or, purport where Srila Prabhupada speaks favorably of Maya, or, refers to Maya as a Pure devotee.
Of course I'm still learning, so I would not be SHOCKED if you showed me a verse or a quote where he refers to Maya as a Friend or Pure devotee.
Tdasa; OK....
pamho. Keep in mind, maya is a noun and a proper noun, both. The wife of the pure devotee Lord Siva is Maya, she is in charge of the delusion, maya.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta 1975
By His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
Adi-lila 14.50
kanyāre kahe,–āmā pūja, āmi diba vara
gaṅgā-durgā–dāsī mora, maheśa–kiṅkara
SYNONYMS
kanyāre kahe—addressing the girls, the Lord would say; āmā pūja—”Worship Me”; āmi—I; diba—shall give; vara—nice husband; gaṅgā—the Ganges; durgā—Goddess Durgā; dāsī—maidservants; mora—My; maheśa—Lord Śiva; kiṅkara—servant.
TRANSLATION
Addressing the girls, the The Ganges and Goddess Durgā are My maidservants. What to speak of other demigods, even Lord Śiva is My servant.”Lord would say, “Worship Me, and I shall give you good husbands or good benedictions.
PURPORT
There is a misconception about the Hindu religion among people who profess other religions, such as Christians and Muslims, who say that in the Hindu religion there are many Gods. Actually that is not a fact. God is one, but there are many other powerful living entities who are in charge of different departments of administration. They are called demigods. All the demigods are servants who carry out the orders of the Supreme Lord, the Personality of Godhead.
Tamohara dasa on November 7, 2021 at 10:04
Tamohara dasa on November 1, 2021 at 6:04
Maya is not our enemy, she is a pure devotee, a great Vaisnavi. She weeps and sometimes hides because of the job she does in devotional service for Krsna. But her maya energy is like an enemy, in that we fall victim to it due to our own sinful desire store. Consider what you say; Lord Siva is head of a Vaisnava disciplic succession, is Mahajana, Sanatan goswami would not reside anywhere if Lord Siva was not nearby. His wife is mother Parvati, Maya is her another name, her son is Gonesha, another pure devotee Mahajana. So how she is not a pure devotee? She is, but you are right to seek to escape her influences.
No two living entities say the same thing ever.
"The upper leadership of ISKCON are also servants of maya because they pronounced themselves Uttama Adhikari and Diksa guru without HIGHER AUTHORITY.
Bhaktivinoda Thakura Says: Those who accept the position of guru when they are not authorized go to Hell, and their disciples go with them.
One can only become diksa spiritual master when he is ordered by his predecessor Bonafide Spiritual Master. There is absolutely no direct order from His Divine Grace for any of His disciples to initiate their own disciples. This means that those initiating their own disciples are in fact cheating and those who are accepting these cheaters as Authorized guru are only being cheated."
Thank you.
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