What is a man supposed to do with a wife who tries to force celibacy on her husband when he is not prepared for such? Sannyasa? Murder? Whores? Second wife? Is this not a question that arises? Then why am I hearing from devotee men that their wife is at conflict with them in this regard? Is it not the wife's duty to work with her husband? Who is telling them that their business is forcing men into doing their will ? Is this Feminism invading, in the name of Mira bhai or Joan of Arc? I have been naive of too many things going on.
If this is what devotee women do, and I was a young man, maybe i should be marrying outside or not marrying ever. Does anyone know the reproduction rate amongst devotees? If its not at least two children per couple, we're going extinct in the name of avoiding sex life.
Madhav Ananda Duty does not work for most woman to blossom sexually...if a woman feels that her partner is able to open and meet them in a receptive state, the affection naturally flows. Learned that lesson the hard way with my last partner.
Madhav Ananda The more man demands affection as a.Duty, The more a woman closes down..
Bobby Butcher Men and women do it to each other...there is a reason why the divorce rate is HIGHER among "devotees" I was guilty of that as well. Feelings of guilt for sleeping with your wife etc. I think a lot of people who are initiated should also have not taken certain vows if you ask me.
Tamohara Dasa Yes, of course, security is also a big issue, but i am speaking of forced celibacy. As a policy. These women decided to be celibate, thats it, husband not even considerred.
Tamohara Dasa I split from my rich beautiful non-devotee wife and young son over Krsna consciousness, foolish idealism now i regret it many years later, damage already done.
Bobby Butcher the more I read the more I notice the word "gradual" or Gradually. Mode of passion mixed with ignorance while performing devotional service will get these kinds of crazy results we all have encountered.
Tamohara Dasa its a razor's edge if you walk that tight a rope.
Madhav Ananda It's a hard balance. Many devotees have much sexual trauma & it makes things complex...a wife taking a vow of celibacy is in the wrong ashrama
Tamohara Dasa agreed they should be honest and shave their heads and wear white khadi .
John Hagerhorst I don't know what a devotee is, but I know that if a woman refuses to have sex with you it is ALWAYS your fault or she has a reason that requires it.
Tamohara Dasa right. thats two with that opinion now.
Tamohara Dasa It should be natural and spontaneous reduction in sex drive with a secure relationship and aging and much chanting. that would be natural.
Tamohara Dasa I remember sitting in Rupa Vilas dasa's small t.p. office in the Ottawa temple of the late seventies. he was offering a connection for marriage to one Kk devi from Chicago, but i asked him in my brahmacari like naive purity, is it not true that Krsna conscious couples have relations only once a month? He said, yes. i replied. then, it is not worth it. I'm now fully convinced of that ; Sons dont let your sons marry Vaisnava devotee women. lol? just being poetic...
John Hagerhorst Now I know what a devotee is. I was vaguely aware of Krishna consciousness in the '70's; I guess it's pretty much the same.
John Hagerhorst I've got no problem with beliefs, unless they're painful, and Krishna was fine.
Tamohara Dasa I am sure we are all one in Spirit, but with our varied understandings of the same greater principles. We just happen to have fallen in love with a most romantic vision, Radha Krishna, and as it turns out, not a new one in history.
John Hagerhorst I never had one, never felt the need for one, then around ten years ago I found I actually had a belief system. Regrettably, I'm the only one who knows it exists.
Tamohara Dasa Let me guess, for you; It has something to do with honesty, self-actualization or being one's own person, personal strength of character, caring for others, being kind to others, taking no unnecessary baloney, and a sense of beauty and poetry that makes the Supreme seems intelligent and sane. No? There is something ineffable and divine behind it all, yes?
John Hagerhorst Krishna?
Ladonna Christy I think forced celibacy is wrong for a wife to do to her husband unless they have both agreed from the beginning of their marriage that their focus is only on Lord. Forced sex though from the husband is uncharitable however. If a devotee is interested in marrying a lady, her ideals should be asked first before vows are taken. It is holy to abstain, but it is also holy to create life.
Tamohara Dasa well said. agreed.
Tushar Keshav Tyagi This problem is persisting from Patala Loka to Brahma Loka...... What can be done
Tamohara Dasa Ah cha! Nice to hear age-old widsom to settle this issue quickly. Yes, it is no doubt correct.
Tushar Keshav Tyagi We are helpless prabhu..... You know very well this can't be settled..... Never ever...
Tamohara Dasa At least i can raise a fuss about it for a while.
Tamohara Dasa Hare Krsna
Tushar Keshav Tyagi Meanwhile in Vrindavan recently, i saw some Brahmcaris selling a book written by some Iskcon devotee about "Understanding a Woman".......and they were saying its a must read for Men who are preparing for marriage grin emoticon hahahah
Neil Singh hahahaha was it an encyclopaedia or was it an incarnation of Krsna / Vyasadeva who wrote that book?
Sarvopama Dasa Any male who discharges semen expecting to enjoy will only lose. Any female who encourages him to do so will also suffer.
Rupa Manjari Devi Dasi As would anyone using Facebook, I would imagine.
John Loyd Rushing Sex is not nor ever should be a duty, for wife or husband. Sex or love making should be natural spontaneous and due to affection, adoration or a stronge feeling for affection that is mutual. If your wife has shut down, you need to find out why? Has her drive diminished, does she not feel intimate with you anymore, there are many factors, if a women does not want to make love, that is her choice, any coercion beyond that is force! And force is always rape, no matter if its your wife or not.
Tamohara Dasa i think its rape of the mind and heart for a spouse to declare celibacy without considering her/his partner.
John Loyd Rushing A women always owns her body in all circumstances, in all ways in all situations, always. If you don't feel reciprocated then other arrangements must be made.
Narottam Chandra Das Dear Tamohara Dasa prabhu. In my opinion it is wrong to imposed forced celibacy by married couple to each other. First one should check their own level of Bhakti. Artificial behavior of following celibacy only gives frustration. The Vedic arrangement meant very scientifically that capable man can marry to many women because it gives more desired children to increase family and to complete other vedic samskar for the benefit of society. Also that sexual desire can be satisfied. For example if some one wife having a only girl children than how that samskar can be done which supposed to do by son or boy child only? That's why second marriage is required. But now days people become fanatic without understanding pure reason of these things.
Tamohara Dasa Agreed, Narottam Chandra Das.
Tamohara Dasa Many insights here today, thanks to the participants...
Noreen Briddigkeit Quinn The couple should pray together over this issue
Tamohara Dasa Krsna devotees often think they know already what God will say, being close-minded and fanatical. They don't really hear, they just tow the party line. Yes, prayer would normally help, good idea for everyone. I've been praying alone now for 45 years or more. tough karma.
Noreen Briddigkeit Quinn In Christianity we would be trying to find God's will as opposed to our will ... We get guidance through Bible study and prayer.. (Bible study IS prayer)
Tamohara Dasa The question is, does this guidance lead to happiness? I have found it not to be so on account of the social situation the devotees are in as a group. We are ostracized, seperated on account of being so few, didvided by sectarian interests, and fanatical about sticking to our limited angles of vision. Everything is hyped and hardened because we are struggling to survive in a hostile ocean around us.
Noreen Briddigkeit Quinn It would depend on what your definition of happiness is?
Tamohara Dasa to not be alone, to not feel like the future of mankind to some extent depends upon oneself and folliowing so many rules and regulations, and such incredibly high standards, such as chanting 16 round of maha mantra on beads daily etc. Life for Krsna devotees is bounded and restricted, and if one does not live in association of others, it is really weird.
Noreen Briddigkeit Quinn or whether you wish to find fulfillment in carrying out God's will - His will is for you to be happy IN HIM (talking from a Christian perspective here)
Tamohara Dasa Yes, that is why I am speaking up. The Vaisnava religion we follow is not working so well for the Westerners so far. It is not the religion, it is the social situations that are causing us to feel like strangers in a strange land, ie we are outsiders to the rest of the world, and after a while, that can get to you. I find that the Christians are very kind and thoughtful and understanding, such as your good self
Noreen Briddigkeit Quinn I haven't heard of the Vaisnava religion so I will check it out.. My Spiritual advisors always said you can be a better "anything" in Jesus - say you are a Bhuddist - you can be a better Bhuddist IN JESUS and so on. I guess it's because Jesus knows every fibre of our hearts and souls ..
Tamohara Dasa Your loving mood is seen and appreciated by all the readers, it is refreshing and innocent and kind and wise. The Christians these days seem to have some good things going on. God and Jesus Bless us all !
Noreen Briddigkeit Quinn You have placed your concerns at his feet - Now watch and wait for the answer .. heart emoticon
Neil Singh Noreen Briddigkeit Quinn the absence of distress is known to be happiness in this material world ..
Noreen Briddigkeit Quinn There are two types of stress One is EUstress and the other is DIstress. We humans aim to find a balance because one without the other is impossible. There are 2 Nerve (neurological) nerves running through the body = The Spmpathicus and the PARA-Sympathicus (Other cultures call them Ying and Yang but they mean exactly the same thing) These are affected by good (EU) stress and the bad (DI) stress alternately. Here again, it’s balancing both that keeps us going and alert to what goes on around us. Watch an animal when it is relaxed and when it tenses up if danger is imminent. We can learn a lot from animals. The world health organisation describes Health as being the absence of sickness but there’s a lot more to health than absence of illness. Someone with Cancer can be healthier than a physically tuned Athlete -depending on the attitude assumed towards life in general. The same goes for happiness – It has little or nothing to do with the absence of stress (in my humble opinion)
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When Muslims are producing 6-8 children per couple, Hindus should produce 8-10. But the opposite is being observed.
Rupa Manjari Devi Dasi
Q; The mother does not object to being the slave of the child; why then does the wife object to being the slave of the husband?