Correspondence with Godbrothers

Comments

Welcome January 11, 2011 18:33
Welcome January 12, 2011 5:44

From: Tamohara dasa vanaprastha <tamoharadasa@yahoo.ca>
To: Ron Marinelli <Macaroni108@att.net>
Sent: Fri, January 7, 2011 10:14:33 AM
Subject: Re: Astonishing Images done entirely in pencil...

Prabhu Ji; As you have indicated, survival-oriented communities is exactly what Srila Prabhupada had ordered, but the usurper GBC has shifted priorities. By neglecting this order, SP's plan to spread the Movement after the changes coming via self-contained cooperative farming communities has been allowed to dwindle. This spells doom for millions of people.

Still we now have to do what we can, even without the backing of Prabhupada's money or property inheritance, as it has been stolen, just like the world banksters are stealing the wealth of the USA.

So prabhu; How many persons are interested so far? Anuttama, Jhulanyatra, Gadai, Kurvanti, and others overseas, these four come to mind as members of the SPI site who already have started farming self-contained oriented projects, but all in the US. Is there unrestricted access to move to Canada for Americans? I do hope so, though the Americans seen to treat the Canadians like foreigners. Radha Govinda Swami also needs a settled position, but she has been turned around at the Buffalo border in past. My site plans, insh'allah, include a house or temple in India, for our members to visit and stay as they like. Who knows whether it will be possible to travel in the events coming up all too quickly now?

So that is a very brief synopsis demonstrating that there are like-minded nonGBC devotees actively prusuing that goal etc. the nonGBC community is active, you may not be aware of to the extent that is so. An alternative to GBC schmiskcon is being built. Perhaps it is not too late.

I dont know what connections you may have so far as devotees interested in cooperative devotional services go, but there is at least some interest for sure at SPI currently. There is one lad in Montreal looking to relocate and hopefully get into devotional service, he is chanting, and is awake also. advise them t0 go to the local temples, but just to be aware of the overall situation so as not to get sucked into being soul slaves to demons.

Anyway, just following up on the trend of future arrangement plans. Do you envision a Vedic style community, or were you thinking more a mixed nonsecular thing? Or shall it be organic, ie spontaneous?

HK Tdas
Welcome January 12, 2011 5:45

Uttama Prabhu; Thank you for your kind replies. I do use much of the materials which you refer for further placement at five websites. I am involved in several such sites, though frankly am also growing a wee bit tired of it all. Too much writing and not enough japa, i think. I have learned a lot since the osteoarthritis thing slowed my pace, though, and am able to preach by internet with a modicum of success, so it is Krishna's mercy.

Thanks for volunteering to say Haribol to HG Gayatri dasa. No big deal at all, really, so its casual, more or less. >' )

I have no interest in unnecessary hastles or complaint etc and wish him well, of course. One ritvik initiated lad, recommended for same by me, went to the temple there with good intent, but Gayatri would not use the devotee's devotee name, but insisted on using a karmi name to him! Very insulting to him, hurt him a lot, brand new devotee. ouch.

Sorry for being so expressive of militant moods towards things. Thats always been my nature; family of military types on one side, intellectuals on the other. So I write with some fire sometimes !

I really like your idea of use of select hi tech mixed with tradtional Vedic culture. That is my own preference also, but I have mostly caved in to the low tech notions which I have seen used in Iskcon so far, and have not wanted to suggest anything which might paint me as deviant etc. but i agree, solar, wind, etc technologies are a fine transition from here to hydrogen or zero-point or anti gravity drives. And with the advantage of being relatively low tech compared to hydrogen etc. Dirt farming with no electricity is not for me, i suspect. I've lived in India like that, but NAm winters etc require some conveniences!

I do not know Skype but have heard something of it. I must admit i find the computor very convenient. I am not very computor savvy, frankly, re skype etc,just minimal to get by and do word processing, ning site, like that. I lead a very quiet existence these days, admittedly !

There is a small devotee community in Nelson, BC, where they have a prasadam health fast food restaurant that is successful. Of course, the farm near Cache creek is still there, but i have never visited either. I know BC fairly well.

I must admit I am running on lower capacity since the health thing , and so often find myself wondering what i am capable of doing with the balance of my time here. Most diabetics have a fifteen-20 year life span, once diagnosed as adults, more if they're younger and eat right etc. As well, as already mentioned, resources are limited, such that I can move to India once mom passes on (she's a devotee), and be well off, or stay here and eventually be collecting old age security pension and welfare /income supplement, but be piss poor, really.

So that plays a big role in the choices Krsna and my karma have allowed me. To be frank, i am just hoping to relocate and transfer over to there before the whole she-bang collapses ! I am not sure what the future will bring, but perhaps i am too old now for active involvement in evolution. I just want to eventually pass on in one of the dhamas, and meanwhile try to inject some truth and encourage some bhaktas.

Hare Krsna !

From: Ron Marinelli <Macaroni108@att.net>
To: Tamohara dasa vanaprastha <tamoharadasa@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Fri, January 7, 2011 4:12:36 PM
Subject: Re: Astonishing Images done entirely in pencil...

On Jan 7, 2011, at 8:14 AM, Tamohara dasa vanaprastha wrote:

Prabhu Ji; As you have indicated, survival-oriented communities is exactly what Srila Prabhupada had ordered, but the usurper GBC has shifted priorities. By neglecting this order, SP's plan to spread the Movement after the changes coming via self-contained cooperative farming communities has been allowed to dwindle. This spells doom for millions of people.

So let's focus on the new and positive.

Still we now have to do what we can, even without the backing of Prabhupada's money or property inheritance, as it has been stolen, just like the world banksters are stealing the wealth of the USA.

ISKCON doesn't own Krsna or Prabhupada, so even though we may not have those resources, we are still empowered by our sincerity and eternal connection. Krsna is rich, and we have direct access to his mercy. Look what Prabhupada did with next to nothing.

So prabhu; How many persons are interested so far?

Very few in general at this point.

Anuttama, Jhulanyatra, Gadai, Kurvanti, and others overseas, these four come to mind as members of the SPI site who already have started farming self-contained oriented projects, but all in the US. Is there unrestricted access to move to Canada for Americans? I do hope so, though the Americans seen to treat the Canadians like foreigners.

I don't think so. But if things get chaotic, borders won't be much of a concern. Besides, we don't have to follow any laws - it's anarchy and war time!

Radha Govinda Swami also needs a settled position, but she has been turned around at the Buffalo border in past.

She?

My site plans, insh'allah, include a house or temple in India, for our members to visit and stay as they like. Who knows whether it will be possible to travel in the events coming up all too quickly now?

Exactly. If oil rises = gas rises = more expensive travel costs = less travel.

So that is a very brief synopsis demonstrating that there are like-minded nonGBC devotees actively prusuing that goal etc. the nonGBC community is active, you may not be aware of to the extent that is so. An alternative to GBC schmiskcon is being built. Perhaps it is not too late.

It's never too late. Prabhupada went off on his own, and we can too. We don't require an organization for support and validation. We do want to create a community, but we have to do that according to time and circumstances and the collective mentality of the participants.

I dont know what connections you may have so far as devotees interested in cooperative devotional services go, but there is at least some interest for sure at SPI currently. There is one lad in Montreal looking to relocate and hopefully get into devotional service, he is chanting, and is awake also. advise them t0 go to the local temples, but just to be aware of the overall situation so as not to get sucked into being soul slaves to demons.

Anyway, just following up on the trend of future arrangement plans. Do you envision a Vedic style community, or were you thinking more a mixed nonsecular thing? Or shall it be organic, ie spontaneous?

The guiding principle I envisioned is... Ancient wisdom + modern technology. Modern tech that isn't destructive, ie: solar, wind, etc. Ancient wisdom = Vedic principles that have practical application in today's situation, ie: cow protection, spiritually based family units, self sufficiency re food, water and energy, etc.
Welcome January 12, 2011 5:45

A wonderful reply. I am thankful to have a senior Godbrother's encouragement. I beleive your note would be helpful to the devotees, so if you're ok with it, i would like to transport this note to the SPI site?

Working today; i drive a taxi two days a week. Quite the change from audiology!
Welcome January 12, 2011 5:46

Dear Uttama Sloka Prabhu;

So you were the bhakta program dude? I can see it! I bet they loved the kirtanas! You probably got a lot of people playing drums ever since ! did the books distributrion at the airport actually bring any devotees to the temple? Were you not managing Toronto Temple for some time ?

I am finding myself getting very close to the devotees I am working with at the SPI site. I find remembering the devotees to be every bit as good, better, than remembering Krishna directly ! But i am suprised at how close I have gotten in the sense of parental-like concerns for the initiates at SPI. We really are like a little family.

Hamilton cabs! my God. my father's brother Harold, or was it Jack, used to drive in Toronto. Eventually died in his cab!

Its fun sometimes, i don't mind it. Drove one solid seven day a week for one month stint, boy that can be weird. The money is getting less each year, they tell me. Christmas time should be minimum 100 dollars take home per day, but lately, its more like 65. Thats the good days! I need a btter paying job than this. Audiology paid about 40/hr, or when i owned my own shop, about 15 k clear per month. Some vanaprastha i am! All the money talk.

So i like to kid around and be quite friendly , not authoritarian etc with the students, though sometimes you have to draw the line. i had one of them quoting Aurobindo to old time devotees! >.' ) She doesn't do that anymore, you betcha. Maybe just a little once in a while.

Krishna! We need an army. Yes, you'll tell me 'one drop at a time'. You will survive, your family will pass on the true things. Me, I'm going down in flames, like the sword you mentioned ! My son was totally deviated by the ex, who i left because she kept throwing my Sastra in the garabage. We were mostly seperated after Chris was born, as she went back to BC, and i contnued my studies in USA. But we more or less were back together when i finished my degrees. I was reading Krsna book with him at night, and we used to play at being king and brahmana. He was the king. But she was jealous and uncertain and later became a Catholic! My son had to get her to fish Krsna books out of the garbage two times. I told her once more, and I will be gone and she will never see me again.

Done ! At the time, it seemed a good move. At least now, vanaprastha is like a piece of cake!! >.' )

You and me, our relationship is like friendship tinged with awe and reverence, but thats good. You are a little bit of Supersoul ! This is complimentary, by the way! The new article looks good, skimmed it and will read it . Is there such a thing as knowing too much? Its disgusting what goes on, insane, kali yuga with a bag o chips.

With that, i bid you a pleasant day ! My obeisances. AGTSP !

.

From: Ron Marinelli <Macaroni108@att.net>
To: Tamohara dasa vanaprastha <tamoharadasa@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Sat, January 8, 2011 2:42:52 PM
Subject: Re: Astonishing Images done entirely in pencil...

On Jan 8, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Tamohara dasa vanaprastha wrote:

A wonderful reply.

Thanks.

I am thankful to have a senior Godbrother's encouragement.

If we can't forge strong, loving relationships here, how will we fit in back home?

I beleive your note would be helpful to the devotees, so if you're ok with it, i would like to transport this note to the SPI site?

OK. I assume you mean the last part. I would like to change a bit in this paragraph...

So many people struggle with balancing material and spiritual life, and there are very few qualified people who can guide them in a balanced, common sense way. The real need isn't for more world wide preachers - we have many of them, and Prabhupada already planted the seeds all over the world.

Working today; i drive a taxi two days a week. Quite the change from audiology!

My father was a partner in the biggest taxi company in Hamilton, ON!

From: Ron Marinelli <Macaroni108@att.net>
To: Tamohara dasa vanaprastha <tamoharadasa@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Sat, January 8, 2011 5:44:33 AM
Subject: Re: Astonishing Images done entirely in pencil...

On Jan 8, 2011, at 2:22 AM, Tamohara dasa vanaprastha wrote:

Uttama Prabhu; Thank you for your kind replies. I do use much of the materials which you refer for further placement at five websites.

The grass roots information highway.

I am involved in several such sites, though frankly am also growing a wee bit tired of it all. Too much writing and not enough japa, i think. I have learned a lot since the osteoarthritis thing slowed my pace, though, and am able to preach by internet with a modicum of success, so it is Krishna's mercy.

Any communication that benefits others is good.

Thanks for volunteering to say Haribol to HG Gayatri dasa. No big deal at all, really, so its casual, more or less. >' )

I have no interest in unnecessary hastles or complaint etc and wish him well, of course.

One ritvik initiated lad, recommended for same by me, went to the temple there with good intent, but Gayatri would not use the devotee's devotee name, but insisted on using a karmi name to him! Very insulting to him, hurt him a lot, brand new devotee. ouch.

Divide and conquer has been 'their' model for a long time. We need the strength in numbers at this time.

Sorry for being so expressive of militant moods towards things. Thats always been my nature; family of military types on one side, intellectuals on the other. So I write with some fire sometimes !

I have the same fire. I'm a brahmin with a sword! ;-)

I really like your idea of use of select hi tech mixed with tradtional Vedic culture. That is my own preference also, but I have mostly caved in to the low tech notions which I have seen used in Iskcon so far, and have not wanted to suggest anything which might paint me as deviant etc. but i agree, solar, wind, etc technologies are a fine transition from here to hydrogen or zero-point or anti gravity drives. And with the advantage of being relatively low tech compared to hydrogen etc. Dirt farming with no electricity is not for me, i suspect. I've lived in India like that, but NAm winters etc require some conveniences!

Well, if supposedly available but hidden technologies are released, then the energy problem will become a non issue. We really only need electricity and we can do everything.

I do not know Skype but have heard something of it. I must admit i find the computor very convenient. I am not very computor savvy, frankly, re skype etc,just minimal to get by and do word processing, ning site, like that. I lead a very quiet existence these days, admittedly !

You just need a webcam ($50) and then plug it into your computer via a USB port. Then, go to Skype.com, sign up (free) and make up a Skype name. Then we can add each other to our Contacts list, and talk face to face for free online. We use it to spend time with my grand daughter in Philly during the week, so she doesn't grow up not knowing us.

There is a small devotee community in Nelson, BC, where they have a prasadam health fast food restaurant that is successful.

I heard about that.

Of course, the farm near Cache creek is still there, but i have never visited either.

Is that Saranagati?

I know BC fairly well.

How is the Okanagan Valley as a possible destination for our purposes? We need direct access to fresh water, good growing land and climate, etc.

I must admit I am running on lower capacity since the health thing , and so often find myself wondering what i am capable of doing with the balance of my time here. Most diabetics have a fifteen-20 year life span, once diagnosed as adults, more if they're younger and eat right etc.

Are you getting any relief from natural remedies?

As well, as already mentioned, resources are limited, such that I can move to India once mom passes on (she's a devotee), and be well off, or stay here and eventually be collecting old age security pension and welfare /income supplement, but be piss poor, really.

So that plays a big role in the choices Krsna and my karma have allowed me.

If your functionality is severely limited due to health issues, then India may be the best idea.

To be frank, i am just hoping to relocate and transfer over to there before the whole she-bang collapses ! I am not sure what the future will bring, but perhaps i am too old now for active involvement in evolution. I just want to eventually pass on in one of the dhamas, and meanwhile try to inject some truth and encourage some bhaktas.

When things are uncertain, it just means Krsna wants us to not be too concerned and focus on transcendental activities, leaving the rest to Him.

My focus has always been to take care of devotees, both Godbrothers and sisters, and new devotees. That is the most important teaching work, IMO. Siksha is more important than diksha in the long run. We are all empowered to do that by Prabhupada, as the quote from him on your website says.

So many people struggle with balancing material and spiritual life, and there are very few qualified people who can guide them in a balanced, common sense way. We don't need world wide preachers - Prabhupada already planted the seeds all over the world.

We need gardeners who can cultivate and nurture the seeds to fruition by ongoing example and guidance. Tens of millions of books have been distributed. Where are the tens of millions of new devotees? Who is actually taking care of the ones who are here now? I mean really giving them valuable guidance, and not just a group lecture a few times a year.

Prabhupada gave us all the necessary knowledge in his books, but we actually trained each another daily re the implementation of that knowledge. And even after 30+ years, so many devotees are struggling for want of good advice, guidance and encouragement. And they were initiated directly by a pure devotee. So diksha alone isn't enough to save them - they need regular siksha and sanga to guide them home. It's a package deal.

All this argument over gurus can make you sick to your stomach. A real guru doesn't even tell anyone that they are a guru. They just do it - just introduce people to Krsna, then teach them how to implement this knowledge in their daily lives, and have fun together on the way back home.

Is there anything else? Is there something higher?

Hare Krsna !
Welcome January 12, 2011 5:50

Dear Uttama Sloka and Hastgopal Prabhus; Reading your correspondence, I wrote this. It is general and applies not specific to either of you, but does express my feelings in general on the topics raised;

Pamdo. Thank you for adding me to this discussion, however I have seen this sort of thing too often before, and although I offer my respects to the readers, I am not myself particularly interested in further debates, having moved away from that and into the field. As well, the world situation is such that there is no more time for debate. The ritvik versus GBC etc issues are puny compared to world take-over by poisoners and demons. Still, It is good that Godbrothers interact, good that we are able to interact.

In all due respect, why would anyone want to take a chance with the blooping poisoner gurus when an extraordinary loving pure devotee is fully available? I am 100% in favor of simply presenting Srila Prabhupada as he is. The people of the world recognize a pure advanced God-like saint Srila Prabhupada, but lesser others are subject to ridicule and a mediocre response from the world. This we see practically. There are no substitutes. Srila Prabhupada said his books will be the lawbooks, no changes required.

Why are the devotees stuck on this paradigm; ritvik or bogus Iskcon? Srila Prabhupada left us a harmonized system; diksa by his instruction as his disciples, and also, there is allowance for actual purest devotees to also initiate, such as Gour Govinda Swami. However, as did Srila Prabhupada himself, they must leave the formal institution to do this, and form their own societies. Otherwise they are subject to abuse and murder by the guru poisoners club,GPC. Let Prabhupada's disciples continue, not that our insane godbrothers occupy Prabhupada's temples like thieves, and initiate for other gurus. Let them go get their own temples, poison each other, etc., there is no objection. Are they such weaklings and cowards? Apparently.

Why are they so bothered that we will glorify Srila Prabhupada as good as Jesus?? He is thousands of times more than Jesus ! Jesus is nothing by comparison. Sastra tells us that devotion to guru is better than devotion to God. Devotion to service of guru is better than devotion to God directly. Do you disagree?

But most insist on deviating to one extreme or the other, and so there is a big fight. My Godbrothers have stolen everything and ousted 90% of us, Prabhupada's disciples, and for this, they will pay in full by law of God. Now, we are suffering for lack of daily program and association. But because we are sincere, Krsna sees all this, and the result is that our preaching has simply increased and expanded, such that Iskcon is no longer that relevant. It will soon enough be replaced by Prabhupada's followers. We the abused disciples will expand and fill the spiritual void that current bogus cults cannot.

Milk touched by the lips of a serpent has a poisonous effect. Deviations, fall downs, ego trips, etc etc etc will follow those who sip such contaminated milk.

In this regards, initiations are available as disiples of Srila Prabhupada, and those who have accepted this are extraordinary devotees, full of life and enthusiasm, and they are happy and progressing nicely. So whatever your conclusions reached by internet discussions, the initiation programs go on, as they do at Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON, website at http:puredevoteeseva.ning.com/, and will not stop, as this is Prabhupada's will.

Thanks for your patience. Wishing you both all the very best. Hare Krishna
Welcome January 12, 2011 5:51

From: Ron <bizknow@gmail.com>
To: charles dowson <hasti90@hotmail.com>
Cc: Tamohara dasa vanaprastha <tamoharadasa@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 6:27:47 AM
Subject: Re: Initiation Protocols Interview with Sriman Locanananda Prabhu

I've been corresponding with Tamohara, so I thought he would like to be included in this response.
It's an expansion of something I just wrote to him.

On Jan 5, 2011, at 9:25 PM, charles dowson wrote:

Did you ever see this?

No.

I'm not sure of the year but it is very informative. Hasti

It certainly is.

I strongly disagree with what ISKCON has done, and I strongly disagree with Locanananda's analysis.

Both are well intentioned, and both are riddled with insanity.

Locanananda wants to turn Prabhupada into Jesus, and the GBC wants to turn ISKCON into the Vatican!

Un-fucking-believable!!!

I thought about responding to his points one by one, but I don't even want to waste my time - it's not worth it. Certainly he sees the flaws in ISKCON, but his arguments in favor of his position are word jugglery of the highest order, worthy of the ACLU. He sounds like an Illuminati implant, trying to create dissension in our ranks, by deifying Prabhupada into a Jesus like figure.

Let's establish one thing perfectly clear...

Prabhupada never wanted himself to be the focus of ISKCON - NEVER EVER!!!

Why don't people understand this simple fact/truth? Show me in his books or letters where he emphasized that.

He wanted Krsna to be the focus. He never wanted to be the object of worship in ISKCON. He wanted Krsna to be the center.

It's, The International Society for KRISHNA (not Prabhupada) Consciousness!!!

It's all about Krsna. It's not all about Prabhupada.

He is of course a huge deal for us, and he always will be, but he didn't want us to make everyone else accept him that way. He wanted us to get everyone to read his books so they would become devotees of Krsna - not devotees of Prabhupada. Once they read his books, they'll love and appreciate his greatness too. But Krsna is the goal, not Prabhupada.

Here is my position on the guru issue...

Prabhupada never intended that ISKCON would create or authorize gurus.

It's not in the founding docs, or other docs, or letters, or his books. Nowhere.

Prabhupada explained the param para, disciplic succession system thoroughly in his books, and repeatedly said in his books, letters, lectures, interviews and morning walks, that his disciples would be the next gurus in the line, as was always the system since Brahma. That is precisely what he was training us for, and he made that crystal clear beyond any shadow of a doubt.

As an aside, for Locanananda to say that this one statement, 'officiating acharyas', now cancels or supersedes the overwhelming statements referenced above, is horse shit of the stinkiest kind, and his whole platform rests on that. Therefore it is a worthless argument. Prabhupada's books are the Vedic law books - not 2 words in a letter.

Prabhupada was never appointed or authorized by anyone to accept disciples. He did it on his own, based on what Krsna and his guru told him in his heart privately. That is exactly what every disciple of Prabhupada can do, following in his footsteps.

Any disciple can decide to become a guru and accept disciples if they choose, as authorized by Prabhupada.

No one can tell another God brother/sister what they can or can't do in service to Prabhupada and Krsna.

ISKCON management also has no jurisdiction whatsoever over anyone's personal, direct relationship with Prabhupada and Krsna - ever.

Each disciple has direct access to Prabhupada and Krsna and can act on their own as they are guided by them. That has been the process since time immemorial, and it will remain so.

If such gurus attract disciples and then fall down, that's their sole personal responsibility.

If they don't ever fall down, and they remain sincere and honest, then they and their disciples will make steady progress together back home, regardless of whether they are currently 'pure devotees'. The process of bhakti works.

ISKCON's management does however, have the right to regulate the relationships of the ISKCON organization with such gurus.

EG: If any guru wants to directly 'partner' with an ISKCON project, or temple, or festival, ISKCON has the right to make sure this guru is following the standards Prabhupada set, so there is no conflict of interest, or potential downside for ISKCON. That's reasonable, acceptable and simple to implement.

However, 'partnering' is different from 'participating'. Anyone can peacefully and joyfully 'participate' in ISKCON temple functions and festivals - hearing, chanting, dancing, feasting, worshiping, etc. All devotees should be welcomed. Prabhupada wanted people from all religions to participate, what to speak of all Vaishnavas.

That way Prabhupada stays the main focus of ISKCON as the founder-acharya, and the primary siksha guru, via the legacy of his books. His disciples expand it outward from there.

The primary goal is not to expand ISKCON, but to expand the number of Krsna conscious people in the world. More devotees - not more buildings.

No person or organization can function as the guru police. It will never happen. It cannot be legislated, and you can argue philosophically till you're blue in the face, and you won't change a thing.

Krsna is the one who guides new comers to his devotees, according to like natures. There will always be phony gurus, weak gurus, sincere gurus, highly evolved gurus, quiet humble gurus, egotistical gurus, etc. Always was - always will be. No one can control or regulate that.

You can only be 100% sincere and honest yourself, and guide those who Krsna sends to you for that purpose. Part of that may involve exposing unqualified gurus.

Here are the facts...

I never consider the people I teach as students or disciples. I never tell them that I'm their guru. I just teach them. The knowledge is the focus of our attention - not the teacher.

Every disciple of Prabhupada is already empowered to be a vartma pradarshika guru, and a siksha guru. You don't have to be an madhyama or uttama adhikary to perform either of those functions.

Prabhupada already authorized us to do this, as did Lord Caitanya - 'become a guru'. Case closed, over. No ISKCON approval required. Every Prabhupada disciple can do this immediately. And you don't have to formally accept disciples to be a siksha guru. Just be humble and teach them!

Every Prabhupada disciple is part of a powerful team. When you introduce someone to Krsna, you will also of course introduce them to your primary siksha guru, Prabhupada - that makes 2 siksha gurus - you and Prabhupada. Whatever you lack, Prabhupada makes up for it in his books. And the 3rd partner in this team is the Paramatma - caita guru. Between Prabhupada, Paramatma and you (any disciple), you can help anyone on their journey back home. Guaranteed.

A new devotee shouldn't even contemplate diksha until they have gone through at least 5 years of life on the bhakti path. Then they can ask Krsna to send them a suitable diksha guru, who can be further confirmed by their trusted siksha gurus, acquired over 5 years of association.

If no diksha guru comes - no worries - Krsna will take care of them, and they will continue to make advancement. End of story.

Prabhupada's lila of diksha is finished. It's our turn now - our responsibility. Step up to the plate.

A guru doesn't necessarily tell others that they are a guru - they just teach all the time as part of their normal interactions. They don't want followers, or to be the center of attention. They make Krsna the center of attention. They are transparent via medias.

They directly help 'individuals' understand how to deal with maya and their karma as it relates to their spiritual lives.

This is the tricky part of spiritual life. The actual hands on, 'how does it work in the field', details part. Practical, real world, useful, common sense advice from someone with many years of direct hands on experience. This is what helps the creeper of bhakti flourish. It's an interactive personal dynamic. Sadhu sanga.

I can't stand it when devotees use the 'Prabhupada Hammer'... Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that - over and over and over again, ad naseum. Prabhupada never used the Bhaktisiddhanta hammer either.

A guru should speak from his/her heart to reveal how this knowledge has directly affected and benefitted them. People want to hear 'your' realizations - did it work for you, and exactly how? That is very powerful.

And if/when they see you in day to day life over the course of time, they can see how you're doing it yourself - acharya. Walk the walk. Be the truth. Live the truth. Sincerity, honesty and humility.

There is so much emphasis on a diksha guru being so important or even mandatory, yet all of this bickering about who is a guru and who isn't, is all being done between people who received diksha from a pure devotee!!!! Talk about divide and conquer!

And so many of Prabhupada's disciples are still struggling for want of good balanced siksha, even 30+ years after receiving diksha from a maha bhagavata devotee.

What does that reveal to you about the importance of diksha?

The army of gurus has existed since Prabhupada was here. The soldiers just need to acknowledge this fact and make it happen in their sphere of influence, however big or small that may be. I suspect that many disciples have.

I for one, have never stopped teaching others since I began reading the Gita in 1970, months before I joined ISKCON, and ever since.

We are the next gurus. Everyone needs to stop obsessing about diksha - it's not the most important thing. Teaching people how to live as transcendentally conscious vaishnavas is. Every Prabhupada disciple is 'authorized' and 'qualified' to do this right now, no matter how fallen they are.

If you are 100% sincere and 100% honest, you are on the way to genuine humility, and those 3 things lead to purity of heart. That's all that's needed to be a guru in our param para, and to save anyone who is also sincere.

I haven't spent any time in this 30+ year insane debate, because I inherently knew it would waste my time and agitate my mind. I just continued to teach as I had been doing before, during, and after my sojourn in ISKCON, and I will continue to do so until I leave this body.

I don't require anyone to worship me, or see me as good as Krsna. Krsna has sent an endless stream of Godbrothers/sisters and new comers to me, and I just do what needs to be done.

It's not that complicated. It's very simple and beautiful.
Welcome January 12, 2011 5:52

Initiation Protocols
Interview with Sriman Locanananda Prabhu

May 26, NEW YORK — Interviewer: The issue of initiations in ISKCON has divided devotees for several decades and appears to have evolved into a schism. What is your personal perspective on this issue?

Locanananda dasa: When I was President of the Amsterdam temple in 1977, I received a copy of the Summary Report of the GBC meetings held in Vrndavana that year from the 27th through the 29th of May. In that report, two of the three questions Srila Prabhupada answered on May 28th were included, but the answer to the question about future initiations was not. A few weeks later, I received a copy of the July 9th letter explaining the new initiation protocols.

It didn’t seem as if much had changed. Initiations would resume despite Srila Prabhupada’s ongoing illness. The letter also addressed the selection of “rittik” representatives of the acarya and referred to the May 28th meeting with Srila Prabhupada, but there was no detailed explanation as to how the two were connected. We were really left in the dark for years as to what instructions Srila Prabhupada had actually given the GBC as a mandate for future initiations.

Interviewer: Would you say it was a cover-up and hijacking of the movement?

Locanananda dasa: There is no question that vital information was withheld from the devotees, information that was critical to the future of our society. But even after the transcript of the recorded conversation of May 28th, 1977 was released, Srila Prabhupada’s intentions were still not clearly understood, and therefore everything was subject to interpretation. Rather than carefully analyze the actual words of the spiritual master spoken on May 28th, the devotees who sought reform in the mid-80’s did so on the basis of general instructions contained in Srila Prabhupada’s books.

This may be a subtle point, but devotees should know that Srila Prabhupada did not manage the Society through his books. He managed through written correspondence with the leaders and through conversations with them that addressed specific management issues. Also, on occasion, to ensure that certain standard management procedures were followed everywhere, Srila Prabhupada would have a letter sent out to all of the centers stating a policy that he wanted to introduce globally. The July 9th, 1977 letter was one such document.

It should be noted that His Divine Grace does not mention the Governing Body Commission (GBC) in any of his books, even though the GBC acts as the primary instrument for the execution of his will by overseeing the management of all ISKCON operations.

The question of how initiations would be conducted when His Divine Grace would no longer be present was basically a management issue, and the answer is not to be found in his books, although his books can be used to philosophically substantiate his managerial directive. In other words, what we are looking for are his ISKCON-specific instructions concerning future initiations, and they can be found clearly stated in the May 28th discussion with the GBC.

Interviewer: So let’s take a look at the May 28th conversation and see what Srila Prabhupada’s words reveal about his intentions.

Locanananda dasa: That day, there were nineteen full GBC members present in Vrndavana. Also in attendance at the meetings were one acting GBC man and two non-GBC members. To ask the most delicate questions, a six-man committee consisting of those GBC members who were on the original GBC formed in 1970 went before Srila Prabhupada.

The first question asked was about GBC members: “How long should they remain in office?” Srila Prabhupada’s answer was immediate, direct and succinct: “They should remain for good.” Then a few points of clarification were added and the next question was brought up:

“Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations would be conducted.”

Srila Prabhupada replied immediately, directly and succinctly:

“Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya.”

In answering this question, Srila Prabhupada introduced a new term, a term not found in any book or previous conversation he had ever had with his disciples. It was the designation he had chosen to fit the role of future initiators in ISKCON. I do not know why the GBC felt it necessary to hide this instruction from the devotees. Perhaps they themselves did not understand what it meant or how to explain it to others. Or perhaps it just wasn’t what they wanted to hear.

The Summary Report stated that some of the questions the GBC asked Srila Prabhupada would not be answered until later. We now know that to be untrue. We know he answered all of their questions that day, immediately and succinctly. The only question the GBC asked that was not included in the Report had to do with initiations. Srila Prabhupada’s answer to that question was that when he would no longer be present, initiations would be performed by officiating acaryas selected from among his leading disciples.

The leaders did not like the sound of that at the time, nor do they like the sound of it now. Otherwise, somewhere along the way they would have asked, “So how does one act as an officiating acarya?” In his subsequent comments, Srila Prabhupada did not mention that any special worship would be offered to an officiating acarya. Nor did he say the officiating acaryas would become the topmost spiritual authority for those who would receive diksa from them. The GBC’s future gurus did not like the sound of that either.

The GBC clearly understood how long their term of office would last, that they would remain for good. When devotees insist that the Directions of Management calls for regular elections, the GBC counters with the above statement from the May 28th, 1977 conversation. They point out that during Srila Prabhupada’s lifetime, no such elections were ever held. They also refer to a letter written to Rupanuga on November 13, 1970:

“Regarding Bali Mardan, he has not resigned and until he or some other member does so, there shall not be any change in the members of the GBC.”

But the GBC has no clue as to what Srila Prabhupada meant when he said they would act as officiating acaryas. They have no faith in that instruction. The present GBC thinks it has everything figured out, but as long as they do not accept Srila Prabhupada’s nomenclature, they will be treading water in a sea of speculation. What they need to do is pass a resolution stating that “Henceforward, anyone who initiates in ISKCON will act as an officiating acarya.”

This is something we should all be able to agree on since these are Srila Prabhupada’s exact words. It simply amazes me that the various camps all admit that Srila Prabhupada used this expression, officiating acarya, but they have all introduced other titles by which they think the devotee performing the initiation should be known. Srila Prabhupada certainly did not say, “I shall recommend some of you to act as diksa gurus,” nor did he say, “I shall recommend some of you to act as initiating spiritual masters, or ritvik gurus or ceremonial priests or anything else besides officiating acaryas.” So let’s make this our common ground and see if we can create a little more unity with a little less diversity by at least agreeing on our terminology.
Welcome January 12, 2011 5:52

Looking objectively at the flow of the May 28th conversation, one can easily see that the questioner was interested in a specific outcome which was that he and his GBC godbrothers would be gurus with disciples of their own. It was that blinding ambition that kept them from implementing Srila Prabhupada’s order for officiating acaryas. Since that time, for more than thirty years, no ISKCON “initiator” has ever referred to himself as an officiating acarya, nor has any GBC resolution ever mentioned the term.

The announcement that he would recommend some of his disciples to act as officiating acaryas was divinely inspired. On one hand, His Divine Grace had to arrange for the continuation of initiations in his worldwide movement without violating the law of disciplic succession. He also had to take into account the management structure that was already in place with its GBC men and temple presidents whose authority he did not wish to subvert. In a letter to Sivananda dated January 23, 1969, Srila Prabhupada had written: “The spirit of the disciplic succession may not be changed, but there may be adjustments made to suit the special circumstances.”

Never before in recorded history had a vaisnava acarya introduced the teachings of Vedic culture and the yuga dharma of Sankirtana to every continent, making devotional service available to the entire human society. The vehicle he had created, known as the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, was meant to carry his universal message to every town and village as predicted by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

The process by which thousands upon thousands of new converts would be initiated into our vaisnava sampradaya had to be established without creating factions, keeping Srila Prabhupada in the center as the devotees’ absolute spiritual authority and object of worship. Srila Prabhupada had called for “unity with diversity”, and the two would have to be in balance for ISKCON to remain a cohesive organization based on love and trust, managed under a spirit of cooperation.

Interviewer: How likely is the GBC to adopt the officiating acarya concept?

Locanananda dasa: I recently asked a member of the GBC why they would not use this term, and he said, “because it sounds too ritvik.” This is a big problem within ISKCON, that devotees do not take Srila Prabhupada’s words as final. They want to introduce their own idea, their own interpretation, their own method, their own culture.

Even if you could provide ten quotes from Srila Prabhupada stating his opinion, they will still refuse to give up their attachment to a false idea. So without external pressure, I don’t see the GBC showing favor to Srila Prabhupada’s recommendation. They are thinking that if it were really that important, he would have mentioned it over and over again, but I have to ask, “How many times did Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati instruct Srila Prabhupada to take Lord Caitanya’s teachings to the Western countries?”

Did he have to tell him over and over again to get him to act? No. Srila Prabhupada immediately took that instruction and cherished it within his heart as his life’s mission. We should be able to do that, too. We should make the order of the spiritual master our life and soul without him having to repeat the same order ten times.

The GBC has already rejected Srila Prabhupada’s recommendation for the past thirty years. What would cause them to have an about-face now? It will only come from external pressure.

When the guru reform movement arranged to meet with the GBC in New Vrndavana in 1985, the GBC was forced to make adjustments in its initiation protocols. Big vyasasanas, daily guru pujas and honorific titles were out. More gurus were voted in. The field opened up, but still no one thought to act as an officiating acarya. Everyone wanted to be jagad-guru and initiate disciples all over the world.

And to this day, as a result of its ever-changing experimental system of initiations, ISKCON continues to suffer the constant dilemma of parallel lines of authority between the temple managers and the initiating gurus. I believe this conflict in authority is the principal reason why people do not live in ISKCON temples but prefer to live outside and visit the temples on Sunday. They simply want to avoid conflict.

There must have been 500 to 1,000 Prabhupada disciples at New Vrndavana and they were all full-time engaged in service. They had clout. There were many temple presidents, sannyasis and senior men clamoring for change. The GBC was backed into a corner and they had to bend. But who can apply that kind of pressure today? The GBC does not tolerate any opposition from the rank and file. Sannyasis, who are supposed to be independent of that sort of ideological tyranny, cannot object to the deviation lest they lose the right to initiate within ISKCON.

Add to that an additional layer of management called the Deputy GBC’s, and you have maya’s perfect storm. There is no way for devotees who are looked upon as outsiders to bring about internal change in the way ISKCON is managed. What is the role of the Deputy GBC’s, anyway? Their expertise seems to be to act as a buffer between the outside devotees and the GBC men who don’t want to hear anyone’s suggestions or criticism. They figure that we are not accountable to them, so they are not answerable to us. But don’t they have to answer to Srila Prabhupada?

So, on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, we want to know who authorized the GBC to reject his recommendation that initiations be performed by officiating acaryas? And when did Srila Prabhupada say that those giving diksa in ISKCON would receive special worship from those they initiate beyond the simple offering of respectful obeisances? I recall one letter from Srila Prabhupada to Brahmananda (8-30-69) wherein he said,

“In our society, everyone, either a brahmacari or sannyasi or grhastha, who has dedicated his life and soul for this movement, they are all on the same level of sannyasi…. Nobody should try to claim any extra honor on account of an official position.”

So we have to ask our guru godbrothers, “How can you keep Srila Prabhupada central as everyone’s object of service, worship and meditation when you are positioning yourself and accepting worship as the current link to the disciplic succession? By what right and on whose authority do you claim this special honor?”

The challenge continues: When did Srila Prabhupada authorize the GBC to introduce new forms of worship in his temples, particularly the worship of new gurus? And if you say it is vaisnava tradition, we must ask when did Srila Prabhupada authorize the GBC to introduce some tradition other than what he himself had personally authorized? When did Srila Prabhupada suggest that his disciples who did not give diksa could be referred to as “non-guru godbrothers” as the GBC has done in its resolutions.

According to Lord Caitanya’s teachings, any vaisnava can be seen as guru, not only those who have formally initiated disciples. The GBC concoction of a two-tiered society in which some godbrothers are worshiped as guru and some are not goes against Srila Prabhupada’s order that everyone should treat his godbrothers as “prabhu” and act as the humble servant of the servant.

Interviewer: There is certainly a lot more to be said on the issue of initiations. We could go through the May 28th conversation line by line, but we’ll have to save that for another day. Would you like to add some concluding comments today?

Locanananda dasa: Yes. The problem is that today’s leaders, and hence their followers, do not take Srila Prabhupada’s words as absolute. They think they have to confirm what he said with scriptural references and the opinions of previous acaryas and even vaisnavas from other lines, but that is not the position of the disciple of a spiritual master who is a pure devotee of Krishna .

Srila Prabhupada is our leader and if you try to bury his instructions, you have no authority and no empowerment. The current initiation protocols in ISKCON may appear to be bona fide because they are based upon whatever conclusions the GBC has drawn from scripture concerning guru-tattva, but if they do not agree with Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON-specific managerial instructions as described above, their conclusions are not to be applied. This principle was discussed in an exchange of letters with Professor Staal of the University of California – Berkeley in 1970. His Divine Grace wrote in a final note:

“We have to accept everything favorable to the circumstances. Rejection of other methods in a particular circumstance does not mean that the rejected ones are not bona fide. But for the time being, taking into consideration the age, time and object, methods are sometimes rejected even though bona fide. We have to test everything by its practical result.”

So, I ask you: What has been the practical result of the GBC’s three decade experiment, complete with fallen gurus, bogus re-initiations, luxurious life-styles, and all sorts of felonious activity? I think one word sums it up: devastation.

The GBC likes to reject Srila Prabhupada’s opening answer on May 28th favoring officiating acaryas and jump to his final comment about regular gurus, but you cannot correctly understand the final comment if you reject the opening comment.

The whole conversation has to be understood line by line in relation to the original answer. If you reject even one word uttered by the spiritual master, how can you act as a transparent via medium and give diksa on his behalf? So we call upon all devotees to question the GBC and all ISKCON gurus on this point. “If Srila Prabhupada said he would recommend officiating acaryas to conduct initiations when he would no longer be present, why do you choose not to act as or refer to yourself as an officiating acarya?”

Let the confrontation begin. Let them feel the weight of having ignored the direct order of the founder acarya for three decades. And if they want to discuss guru-tattva, we can do that, too. The guru/disciple relationship means you take the order of the spiritual master as your life and soul and you mold your life in such a way that you can always follow his order.

So what have you done with the order for officiating acaryas to initiate in ISKCON besides defecate on it for thirty years? Therefore, we say, “Fie on you for posing as maha-bhagavata acaryas and accepting worship although you were never free of material hankering.

And fie on you for covering up Srila Prabhupada’s instructions to all of his disciples concerning future initiations and for thinking Srila Prabhupada’s words are not sacrosanct. And fie on you for allowing so many of your godbrothers to fade away into oblivion because they had no place in the new ISKCON where you must be a GBC/guru clone or ‘yes man’ to survive. Fie unto you!”
Welcome January 12, 2011 5:53

Dearest Prabhus; Uttam Sloka Prabhu especially.

" Our Movement is a declaration of war against MAYA. That you can understand very well, so we have to recruit many fighting soldiers-so do it vigorously! " Srila Prabhupada

Pamho. Pardon my debate. If you instruct me, i will immediately shut up and sit down, as it were. But we are all oldsters, and are not so easily put off by a good exchange of knowledge. I respect your positions and assure that I do contemplate your insights respectfully, and that can sometimes modify my vantage point on issues.

Again, we agree on most everything except the emphasis on diksa, your words, but the emphasis has been placed by the devotees who want spiritual names and who want Srila Prabhupada as their ritually affirmed spiritual master eternally. Srila Prabhupada placed emphasis personally on this ceremony, and did it many many times. We are supposed to emulate. The new devotees want to be Krsna's men, want a bonafide guru, but there are no qualified gurus that I know of currently, so there is one sure one, and yes, "initiation occurs when they touch the book", so why not give them a proper name and respect and spread the culture? Its not enough to offer them college courses but no certificate! We just do as Srila Prabhupada set the example.

You are so right about the importance of siksa even over diksa, but the magic potency is with Srila Prabhupada. He is the real thing, and no doubt. We want to spread worldwide, we have the ideal figure who is respected by all. I think you are maybe exxaggerating in suggesting it is Prabhupada consiousness too much, I beg to disagree. Anyway, the topic is centred on Srila Prabhupada automatically when we discuss initiation issues. There is no abnormal or fanatical over adherence. Besides, any aspect of devotional service can be focussed upon, and it is a spiritual ecstasy. I find my energy from Srila Prabhupada the great conquering general.

Srila Prabhupada put pictures and Deities of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Ji in all the temples, but he is so far above the head of the world's people, it is best that Srila Prabhupada's mercy reign, not hand the go-ahead over to any number of Gaudiya Math-ers, 64 rounds and other impractical ideas, by dint of emphasising Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. It is Srila Prabhupada who came to the world. He is maha jagad guru. Guru is one.

I appreciate the fact that Uttama Prabhu is using practical examples but i think perhaps his logic is premature, as Srila Prabhupada's situation and our times are unique. We need steadiness and world-wide marketability, some coherence and cooperation, and suggest these will be acheived as it was in the good old days, by reestablishing the center of all our mutual loyalties. All the same in this regards. Let these bogus shcmisckon neophytes declare themselves siksa, and give up the farce. They have still occupied the temples, and are still abusing my godbrothers and sisters, and our students!!!

Uttama is very bold in speaking of our freedom to act in Krsna's service as His servants, according to what seems appropriate now. I haven't dared to say such a thing, showing how I am attached to being acceptable, despite my complaints about the bogus cult. I agree, but haven't had the guts to say it much yet. you may start a landslide!

Your statement about the newer gurus is interesting, I am not so familiar with these devotees, except that they are going along with abuse of Prabhupada's disciples and are occupying OUR temples still, and have even put their minions in MY temples and kicked ME OUT. So no, no forgive and forget, baba. It is all bogus because it is built on guru hatya. That must be resolved, otherwise the contamination can never be cleaned from their lineage.Their offense is smelling up the three worlds, and the demigods are wrinkling their noses and sticking out their tongues.

Kindly don't forget I got kicked out of my home temple by Bhakitmurder bootkisser Swami, for not kissing Radhanatha Swamis ass.

So I'm not much in a mood for any of these bogus usurpers.

Begging your indulgence, I know I can be dramatically loud. Pamdo.

From: Ron <bizknow@gmail.com>
To: Tamohara dasa vanaprastha <tamoharadasa@yahoo.ca>
Cc: charles dowson <hasti90@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:02:50 PM
Subject: Re: Initiation Protocols Interview with Sriman Locanananda Prabhu

On Jan 11, 2011, at 8:29 AM, Tamohara dasa vanaprastha wrote:

Dear Uttama Sloka and Hastgopal Prabhus; Reading your correspondence, I wrote this. It is general and applies not specific to either of you, but does express my feelings in general on the topics raised;

Very good.

Pamdo. Thank you for adding me to this discussion, however I have seen this sort of thing too often before, and although I offer my respects to the readers, I am not myself particularly interested in further debates, having moved away from that and into the field.

That is precisely why you've never seen me online at forums or posting articles about this or any other ISKCON subjects, for the last 30 years. I left for the field in 1978 right after Prabhupada left.

As well, the world situation is such that there is no more time for debate. The ritvik versus GBC etc issues are puny compared to world take-over by poisoners and demons. Still, It is good that Godbrothers interact, good that we are able to interact.

Agreed.

In all due respect, why would anyone want to take a chance with the blooping poisoner gurus when an extraordinary loving pure devotee is fully available?

They wouldn't and shouldn't. A wise traveller on the path of bhakti, should make sure that they have spent years learning and doing first, so they can understand clearly who is qualified to be their diksha guru. They should seek advice from their siksha gurus and devotee friends. Bogus pretenders should have their misdeeds exposed.

I am 100% in favor of simply presenting Srila Prabhupada as he is. The people of the world recognize a pure advanced God-like saint Srila Prabhupada, but lesser others are subject to ridicule and a mediocre response from the world. This we see practically. There are no substitutes.

I don't get the impression that our ISKCON guru Godbrothers are still trying to substitute themselves for Prabhupada anymore. The first 11 did, and they got crushed.

I don't have a problem with anyone becoming a guru, whether they are in ISKCON or not. I do have an issue with people not being honest about where they're at spiritually, ie: don't be a phony or fake - be real. IMO, ISKCON doesn't have any jurisdiction re appointing or approving people who want to be gurus. It's each individual's choice.

Srila Prabhupada said his books will be the lawbooks, no changes required.

Prabhupada put himself permanently in the picture by providing the books from his own realizations, with the concurrence of many other angles of vision via previous acharyas. He brought it all together for everyone and anyone.

We guide/teach people accordingly - each individual working together with Prabhupada, via his books, and the Paramatma in everyone's hearts guiding it all.

Why are the devotees stuck on this paradigm; ritvik or bogus Iskcon?

Divide and conquer. What else could it be? None of us wanted that ever. Now it's a free for all. That's why I've stayed out of it and just focused on introducing people to Krsna, and teaching anyone and everyone whenever appropriate.

Srila Prabhupada left us a harmonized system; diksa by his instruction as his disciples, and also, there is allowance for actual purest devotees to also initiate, such as Gour Govinda Swami.

Siksha is far more important than diksha. Prabhupada's books provide that to everyone.

However, as did Srila Prabhupada himself, they must leave the formal institution to do this, and form their own societies.

Agreed.

Otherwise they are subject to abuse and murder by the guru poisoners club, GPC.

It may be more spiritually prudent for you to not lump every single GBC into that camp unless you have specific evidence. Let any specific demons be exposed and punished - we all agree on that.

Let Prabhupada's disciples continue, not that our insane godbrothers occupy Prabhupada's temples like thieves, and initiate for other gurus. Let them go get their own temples, poison each other, etc., there is no objection. Are they such weaklings and cowards? Apparently.

Tripurari has set a really nice example - perfect IMO. He has a small farm/ashram in No Cal and dairy, and a 150 acre ranch in Costa Rica for the rest of the herd. He's doing pretty much what I'd like to do, but we'd be more family oriented.

Why are they so bothered that we will glorify Srila Prabhupada as good as Jesus?? He is thousands of times more than Jesus ! Jesus is nothing by comparison.

This is a fine point that needs to be understood clearly.

The issue isn't about comparing Prabhupada to Jesus - that's not the point.

It's about how the Christians have twisted Jesus into something beyond what he was - made him into a cult figure. Look at how the Vatican has co opted Jesus and used him as a front for their nefarious work.

I think the fear is that this is how it may evolve with Prabhupada. Certainly neither of you will do that, but it will morph over the coming generations.

Sastra tells us that devotion to guru is better than devotion to God. Devotion to service of guru is better than devotion to God directly. Do you disagree?

Another fine point and this is even more important.

What you have written is absolutely true.

But shastra does not tell us to spread that specific part of our Vedic siddhanta all over the world - it is absolutely NOT our primary mission to spread this teaching to the world over and above everything else. Harer nama - not Harer Prabhupada.

Show me in Prabhupada's books where he repeatedly tells us to spread his worship all over the world - to make everyone accept and worship him as a pure devotee. He certainly explained these details to us, but he never told us that it was his mission.

What you have described is the private internal mood of each sincere realized devotee. If you are truly absorbed in Prabhupada and want to stay connected to him, you better be absorbed even more in Krsna, because that's where Prabhupada is.

Did Prabhupada teach us to focus on worship of Bhaktisiddhanta? Was he obsessed with his guru?

Prabhupada gave us the the Srimad Bhagavatam, which is all about Krsna - not him. The Caitanya Caritamrita is all about Lord Caitanya (Krsna) immersed in Krsna - not his guru.

Can you both understand that? Lord Caitanya is Krsna himself saying...

"PERFORM BHAKTI YOGA LIKE ME. I AM TOTALLY ABSORBED IN KRSNA AND RADHA AND EVERYTHING CONNECTED TO THEM.

I'M NOT TRYING TO GET EVERYONE TO WORSHIP MY GURU AND SPREAD GURU WORSHIP ALL OVER THE WORLD!!! FOLLOW MY EXAMPLE."

Have I made my point? I'll stop screaming now. ;-)

But most insist on deviating to one extreme or the other, and so there is a big fight. My Godbrothers have stolen everything and ousted 90% of us, Prabhupada's disciples, and for this, they will pay in full by law of God. Now, we are suffering for lack of daily program and association.

I have not suffered because of that. I ran successful 3 temples in succession, so I know how to keep a program going. Over the years, I've had my own private sadhana to keep me going, however irregular it may have been.

Prabhupada gave me everything I needed to make it on my own, and luckily for me, I've had lots of great association with devotees here who aren't connected to ISKCON. We have supported each other over the years, so I haven't had any problems making steady progress back home.

ISKCON has been irrelevant in my life for many decades.

But because we are sincere, Krsna sees all this, and the result is that our preaching has simply increased and expanded, such that Iskcon is no longer that relevant. It will soon enough be replaced by Prabhupada's followers. We the abused disciples will expand and fill the spiritual void that current bogus cults cannot.

It's a free for all now, and it always has been even before Prabhupada. No one owns or controls this Vedic knowledge or Krsna. We have all been empowered to be vartma pradarshika and siksha gurus since the 70s. Introduce people to Krsna and teach them, no matter where you're at. Just be honest and real and everyone will benefit and go back home - guaranteed per the Gita.

Even Krsna doesn't say you have to have diksha to get home to him. He says to learn the truth from pure hearted devotees. He never says you absolutely have to have diksha or else. Prove me wrong. Does the final order supersede Krsna's instructions in the Gita?

Think about what I'm saying. This is not a debate. You are not debating me. This is transcendental knowledge.

Milk touched by the lips of a serpent has a poisonous effect. Deviations, fall downs, ego trips, etc etc etc will follow those who sip such contaminated milk.

Agreed.

In this regards, initiations are available as disiples of Srila Prabhupada, and those who have accepted this are extraordinary devotees, full of life and enthusiasm, and they are happy and progressing nicely. So whatever your conclusions reached by internet discussions, the initiation programs go on, as they do at Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON, website at http:puredevoteeseva.ning.com/, and will not stop, as this is Prabhupada's will.

You are way too obsessed with diksha. Diksha is not as important as your emphasis on it.

If diksha is so important, there wouldn't be all of this insanity between people who have been initiated by a pure devotee. Prove me wrong on that point. It's no guarantee.

And look at siksha - Prabhupada's books are used by many factions to validate their positions. What a joke. And it will only get worse.

I teach people about Krsna and how to be absorbed in Krsna all the time. There is nothing else. They soon learn how much I love Prabhupada and they understand why as they read and comprehend the knowledge in his books. My private love for him inspires them and they come to love him too. They understand his role as a major siksha guru in their lives.

Thanks for your patience. Wishing you both all the very best. Hare Krishna

Hare Krsna!

of 4