Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Paper Refuting Darwinism Published in Journal 'Communicative & Integrative Biology'
Gentlemen and Ladies; Hare Krsna.
Wallace and Darwin et al suggest survival of the fittest, but what we observe is survival of all but the least fit ! It seems this mistaken paradigm has caught on and is being pushed by an elite agenda.
At any rate, kindly have a look at this simple essay, it may be interesting? My apologies for the simplicity, likely nothing too new to most of you. However, my name was added to the list of scientists , and so I wish to add a little if at all possible;
If we observe the real situation of the world around us, we can gain insight into the real ultility; mundane science versus spiritual revealed knowledge. A system of thought that correlates or explains more of what we can observe around us would, by Occam’s razor alone, have to be taken as more correct or true. And we also take it as a given that by following our own essential natures and thus a system of thought most akin to that nature, we will be most satisfied and happy.
At a basic physical level, gravity and the other forces of nature have no meaning except in realationship to things other than themselves. The law of Gravity, for example, must have an object, such as a planet, upon which to act. So the basic laws have their existence only in relation to there being an “other” to interact with.
Even at a molecular level, we observe that molecules have a built-in capacity to interact with each other systematically, such as covalence. They come complete with exact laws of such exchange, that we call physical chemistry.
Even at a molecular level, we observe that molecules have a built-in capacity to interact with each other systematically, such as covalence. They come complete with exact laws of such exchange, that we call physical chemistry.
At a higher level of complexity, trees, as soon as there is a little light, spring forth leaves to absorb the required energy to live. They later produce shade and food etc. for other living things. The trees’ essential nature is to seek exchanges of energy, and to give services to others.
Whether gross matter, subtle laws, or living things, all exchange with each other to have their meanings. More complex organized states of matter, called life, especially at human level, tend to enhance the science of exchanges constantly to perfect their services and the pleasure derived therefrom.
If we proceed, we will find that this is a universal law, the “science” or art of exchange; which we may call “service”, ie a voluntary exchange of energy etc. to the benefit of the exchangers. It is universally and unerringly the case that living things exchange services to survive. The study of biology confirms that, but does not satisfactorily nor in systematic coherent depth explain the motivation nor the varieties and richness of experiences that are generated in the hearts of the living entities as a result of exchanging these devotional services.
Science as a philosophy does not address devotional service exchange as a principle law. Nor does it address devotional service, or the heart and intent of exchanges, such as between the soul principle and the Source principle, whose chacteristics are understood only by one who understands and has fully imbibed the concepts and varieties and reality of Love Divine.
The Sri Isopanisad says that from the complete whole Source, complete individual sub-units emanate. So we can gain knowledge of the sarva karana karanam, the cause of all causes, by observing the universal characteristics of the world around us, as it will necessarily resemble the Source in many ways. The Source, then would seem to incorporate the need for interactions, ie. devotional exchanges, at a fundamental level, as we see such exchange as universal among all things!
We can observe that individuals following the principles given as spiritual, can and do attain to levels of happiness and devotional service unexperienced by those who will not. This demonstrates that a level of knowledge obtained via devotional services, a higher level of the universally observed phenomenon of exchange, which incorporate notions of love and beauty, can elevate one to a level of happiness otherwise unobtainable.
The literatures of the Rupanuga Vaisnava sect’s Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, such as the Nectar of Devotion, decribe in great detail the eternal and principle realities of the highest manifestations of the universal law of exchanges or service.
Such spiritual systems of life are held dear by several billions of humans, whether we speak of this country or that, suggestive that spiritual knolwedge is natural and indeed essential to life, whereas only a handful understand much of science ; it is too elitist and conditional.
Tamohara dasa , acbssp, BH.S / Thomas Garden, MSc. (Audiology and Communications Disorders)
From: Leonid Hanin <hanin@isu.edu>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com
Cc: "Dorion Sagan (gradientor@yahoo.com)" <gradientor@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Paper Refuting Darwinism Published in Journal 'Communicative & Integrative Biology'
Dear Colleagues,
Thank you for an inspiring discussion. I would like to make a few brief points.
1. Darwinism. I do not think it is worth expending so much of our time and energy on its debunking for a simple reason that it is not a scientific theory! Its central thesis (emergence of new species through postulated mechanisms) has never been (and most likely will never be) observed in an experiment. Darwinism is what Henri Poincare called a neutral hypothesis (and psychologist would call a narrative). It has created a conceptual framework for our thinking about the origins and evolution of biological systems that explains certain observations. Like, say, Marxism-Leninism, Darwinism is a combination of useful notions (such as variation and selection), dubious propositions (e.g. that a combination of heritable changes and survival of the fittest is sufficient for explaining the observed evolution in its entirety) and statements that are outright ridiculous (e.g. that humans descended from apes). But most importantly, the bulk of the “real“ biology (molecular biology, biochemistry, genomics, systems biology, etc.) is totally independent of Darwinism. Over time, I had a chance to discuss it with a few biologists I know. According to my limited observations, about half of them do not actually believe in Darwinism! So, in due time, Darwinism will be relegated to the Museum of Science History.
2. Consciousness. I understand that consciousness is central to the Indian culture and philosophy, and its study has reached great heights (among those known to me, I would mention the work of Sri Aurobindo). However, I believe consciousness is too complex and heterogeneous of a phenomenon to be studied scientifically. That is why its preceding discussion within this group was mostly philosophical. I think one has to focus on a more basic, universal form of consciousness that I would call non-physical life-specific energy. The key is to measure it and formulate relevant quantitative laws. You may think that I am dreaming. But in reality, this is what, to some extent, I systematically do. Aside from my work as a mathematician, I practice energy healing with clients. Before and after every session, I measure the boundaries of the client’s “field” using a dousing rod. Typically, the field expands from 1-2 ft to 3-4 ft. Of course, I do not claim this to be a rigorous scientific experiment. Human body has many energy layers, and I do not really know which one I am measuring. Also, the “true” measured value is confounded by interaction with my “field,” my intention as well as with higher agents that I invoke for help. However, I believe this type of measurement can be sufficiently refined.
I think answering the following two questions about non-physical life-specific energy is critical for scientific understanding of consciousness:
(1) Is non-physical life-specific energy present in all objects in the Universe or in living beings only? In other words, is the difference between dead and live objects qualitative or quantitative? For example, I know from literature and my own experience that crystals and essential oils have significant therapeutic effects. Is it because they have consciousness or because their physical energy has an ability to interact with non-physical human energy to bring about such effects?
(2) Is non-physical life-specific energy objective in the sense that its existence and amount are independent of the observer and his intentions or it is always a function of the pair object-subject and cannot be construed otherwise?
Sorry for a lengthy post.
Leonid Hanin
Leonid Hanin, Ph.D.
Professor of Mathematics and Statistics
Department of Mathematics and Statistics
921 S. 8th Avenue, Stop 8085Professor of Mathematics and Statistics
Department of Mathematics and Statistics
Idaho State University
Pocatello, ID 83209-8085, USA
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 3:08 PM, Klee Irwin <Klee@quantumgravityresearch.org> wrote:
--Hi, all. Dorion, this is an interesting discussion with some inquiring minds including the likes of Deepak Chopra and Stuart Hameroff (orchestrated OR).Guys, before adding my two cents to this discussion, I’d like to explain why I bring in Dorion Sagan. His dad, Carl Sagan, first got me thinking about life in the cosmos. But it was the book What Is Life, that Dorion wrote with his mother, Lynn Margulis, that really got me thinking about this “label” we use called “life”.The book took me through the argument of how arbitrary it was for the biologists to choose viruses to be called living and, say, crystals to not be called living. Then they argued that, just as my body is a colony of cells and bacteria, so too is the biosphere of Earth a colony of different individually living systems. And the biosphere shows hallmarks of an emergent living entity.Our group, Quantum Gravity Research, works on ultra-fundamental physics.Frank Wilczek (physics Nobel 2004) said “The leading interpretations of quantum theory introduce concepts that are extrinsic to its equations (‘observers’), or even contradict them (‘collapse of the wave function’). The relevant literature is famously contentious and obscure. I believe it will remain so until someone constructs, within the formalism of quantum mechanics, an ‘observer’, that is, a model entity whose states correspond to a recognizable caricature of conscious awareness; and demonstrates that the perceived interaction of this entity with the physical world, following the equations of quantum theory, accords with our experience. That is a formidable project, extending well beyond what is conventionally considered physics."Wilczek is correct. We need a microscopic observer to “actualize” physical information into reality starting at the Planck scale (our group formalizes this mathematically). Einstein was correct in saying, “I like to believe the moon is still there even when no one is looking at it”. Microscopic observers or vantage points of some collective substrate type of consciousness would have been a potential solution to his concern.The view that reality is made of information (John Wheeler, Max Tegmark, etc) is growing in popularity and is even bluntly implied by classic and quantum theory. But, as I’m sure some of you will agree (Deepak and others), “consciousness” must play a deep and generalized role in reality (and may be the “ground” of reality) and not just the consciousness of big animals like us.The trivial fact is that you cannot subscribe to a John Wheeler information-only view of reality without admitting that information is ALWAYS part of consciousness. For example, one may define information as:“Information is meaning conveyed by symbolic language”. But here, we see that meaning itself is subjective and requires a chooser or interpreter of meaning.Another definition of information can relate to two words that are equivalent within the context of quantum mechanical formalism: measurement and observationTo measure, one must choose the type of measurement, such as position or momentum. To observe anything, one must choose what to observe. The product of these measurements is “information”. So again, we see that information and some generalized notion of choice and “consciousness” are inextricably linked.Sorry to make this slightly long…Let us stand way back and see if we can agree on some very generalized statements about physical reality:1. EMERGENCE – electrons and quarks self-organize into 81 stable atoms, which self-organize into countless compounds which self-organize into planets, solar systems, galaxies, humans, financial markets and the World Wide Web.2. EVOLUTION – If you do not interrupt a system and allow it to have interaction with the outside, it will continue towards infinite evolution. Take the biosphere of Earth. Each new strata of species fills in the niches left by the species in the previous strata, in a fractal branching algorithm. There appears to be no upward bound on the number of emergent strata in these evolutionary systems. Today we have about 10 million species on Earth. The overall complexity of biospheres tends toward infinity. We see this same principle at play in the exponential acceleration of evolving technology and culture.3. FEEDBACK – In order to maintain a pattern of emergence and evolution, systems must obey the principle of least action and conservation of energy. They must efficiently use resources. Physically, systems do this by feedback loops. Every single system is in a feedback loop with every other. And this all relates to using energy most efficiently to generate the most amount of pattern/meaning for the least quanta of energy. In some sense, you can say that two parts of a system sharing a feedback loop are “co-creating” one another.4. TRANSCENDENCE – No need to make this sound spiritual (even though I am very open to spirituality). As Stuart will tell you, there are scientists who attend his conference who believe they are not conscious. The idea is lightly referred to as the zombie theory. But these guys are the minority. Most scientists believe they are conscious and that they have freewill. If they are correct, then we have one of the deepest examples of how transcendence is physically real and seemingly inevitable with respect to the laws of physics. In other words, as with abstract mathematics or poetry, this high minded conversation about consciousness we’re having is in a different category from quarks and electrons and their interaction with photons and gravity. In fact, this conversation and our ability to have it seems SO different that the word “transcendence” is not a bad choice of a word. And since this “stuff” called transcendent consciousness is real and deeply related to physical reality, it’s a player with any theory of physical reality whether we like it or not. The question I pose to us all is “Is there an upper limit on this transcendent consciousness stuff?” and “Can it exponentially explode and network to the point where it becomes a massive determinant of the physical destiny of the universe, playing alongside gravity and the other forces?” And most wildly, “Can an exponential evolution of collective-type networked consciousness explode to such a level that it becomes the substrate of the universe itself, where the causal notion of time on a line turns out to be old-school and where temporal reality is actually wrapped into a circle?”Crystals, dogs, tornados, Internet memes, humans, solar systems, viruses and any other patterns in nature use: (1) emergence, (2) evolution and (3) feedback. Can we somehow generalize the “life” label to define any self-organizing subsets of physical reality that has these three qualities?Also, every pattern in nature seems to tend towards surviving and growing. A tornado and crystal seek to survive and grow by delicately dancing in feedback loops with their environments. So do all the other types of self-organized matter and energy. Can we generalize the “life” label to define any system that uses those above three things to (1) survive and (2) grow? I can say that me and my two standard poodles definitely want to survive and grow. I admit that it is harder to say that a tornado “wants” to survive and grow. But nonetheless, that tornado TENDS to survive and grow using the same technique of self-organization, feedback, evolution and transcendence that me and my dogs use. I agree that the quality of its “desire” to survive and grow seems less sophisticated than mine. I can even agree that my desire to survive and grow is so massively more sophisticated and emergent that I should say my desire is virtually transcendent from the mere TENDENCY of the tornado or crystal to survive and grow.But it’s hard to see, from first principles, where we’re supposed to stick this cut-off point to label the tornado as a non-living system and me and my poodles as living.From: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com [mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kalevi Kull
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 5:06 AM
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Paper Refuting Darwinism Published in Journal 'Communicative & Integrative Biology'Life is semiosis. Life is a network of sign processes. This is obviously the most exact and brief definition of life.BestKalevi Kull20-10-2015 14:33 kirjutas Deepak Chopra:I find the comments from Prof Anthony J Trewavas especially enlightening !I also agree with the comment ( from Don Salmon ) in this thread that physics and science in general have nothing to say about life or even matter! "We measure an abstraction from our sensory experience -- Whitehead said it more poetically, "Apart fromexperience there is nothingness, bare nothingness" Quantum coherence is hardly more than a conclusion based on measurements about processes of something of which modern scientists from physicists to those in my field, psychology, have absolutely no knowledge. None. Zero. That is, as scientists (of the quantitative kind) they have no knowledge. If the scientists' knowledge were all we had of the universe, the universe would not exist."Science has no access to reality , only models of realityV grateful for these insights !Thank you2013 Costa Del Mar RoadCarlsbad, CA 92009The Chopra FoundationSuper Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing________________________________________From: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Anthony J Trewavas <trewavas@ed.ac.uk>Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 5:44 AMTo: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Paper Refuting Darwinism Published in Journal 'Communicative & Integrative Biology'The question what is life commonly arises. The following are some ofits characteristics. Complexity, uniqueness, holism, emergence,interconnectedness, unpredictability, openness, organisation,disequilibrium, evolution, hierarchy, information, self-organisationand teleonomy. Inherently cells are very complex systems, capable ofself-organisation; hierarchical structuring ensures constraint in whatthe levels of organisation are constructed from. I included somediscussion of these principles in chapter 3 of my book Plant behaviourand Intelligence but to be frank they need a whole book on its own ifanyone is up to it. When a person dies usually we reference braindeath because that is the obvious source of animation that makes aperson a person but true death involves a whole variety of losses thatoccur, energy flow perhaps being crucial since that is requiredmaintenance.Good discussion though, keep it going, we all learn.Anthony Trewavas FRSProfessor Anthony Trewavas FRS. FRSEInstitute of Molecular Plant ScienceMayfield RoadEdinburgh EH9 3JH0131650532801316513331Home phone 01968673372Quoting Don Salmon <donsalmon7@gmail.com> on Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:02:42 -0400:I just looked up Rosen's book. The first reviewer almost has it: "Physics has little to say about life.' More accurate: "physics has nothing to say about life" in fact, physics has nothing to say about matter - it only can measure an abstraction from our sensory experience (eddington knew this quite well - all they have are "pointer readings" - Whitehead said it more poetically, "Apart from experience there is nothingness, bare nothingness" Quantum coherence is hardly more than a conclusion based on measurements about processes of something of which modern scientists from physicists to those in my field, psychology, have absolutely no knowledge. None. Zero. That is, as scientists (of the quantitative kind) they have no knowledge. If the scientists' knowledge were all we had of the universe, the universe would not exist. As sentient beings, of course they have Knowledge. The big problem is they don't know it. On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 7:59 PM, Don Salmon <donsalmon7@gmail.com> wrote:quantum coherence? = life? I don't think so! If you take away the material universe, you still have Life, but no matter, and I wouldn't imagine that the subtle planes worry much about physicists' quantum imaginings! But we can meet tonight in a lucid dream and check it out. On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 7:49 PM, Hameroff, Stuart R - (hameroff) < hameroff@email.arizona.edu> wrote:Life: quantum coherence in microtubules ------------------------------ *From:* Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com < Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Basudeba Mishra < mishra.basudeba@gmail.com> *Sent:* Monday, October 19, 2015 12:31 PM *To:* Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Paper Refuting Darwinism Published in Journal 'Communicative & Integrative Biology' The question still remains: how do you define life? How a living cell is different from a dead cell? What is the difference between a person immediately before and immediately after his death? On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 11:05 PM, Pramod Yadava <pkyadava1953@gmail.com> wrote:Dear Dr Sankhyan and other learned friends: Let me just add that in an attempt to create living cells what has been achieved is putting synthetic genome into ghost cells and reviving Mycoplasma genitalium. This is a definite step forward in the direction of making living cells even though by mimicking what already exists. The other aspects of origins of life that cannot be ignored are (a) Urey-Miller experiments on abiogenesis of biomolecules during mid 20th century and (b) selection of some RNA moleculaes with RNA polymerase activity that give some credence to the RNA world hypothesis which can be taken to the pre-cellular phases of life-like acctivities. It is argues that if sufficient informational and catalytic capabilities of desired kind converge, a living system can get rolling. This makes a lot of logical sense. It may e true that complex (evolved?) organisms such as humans with long term memory, logical simulations and tool-making capability might manifest in a manner not accountable in simple biochemical terms but even that should have an evolutionary history. One can argue that this leaves enough space for "God" and spiritualism but these will have to be universal and not divided among different civilizations. Best wishes, On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Dr. A.R. Sankhyan < sankhyan51@rediffmail.com> wrote:Respected Sir, With my small brain and little knowledge and minute wisdom I wish to make a few points. 1. Darwinism is most often than not misunderstood or misinterpreted. A genius as Darwin is born after centuries (may be yourself is at present). This genius expressed his views over 150 years ago when biological science was in embryonic stage. So,if we blame him today for whatever he said or made some error of judgment over 150 years ago, is a very trivial matter; ridiculing him at this stage when all sciences are touching the sky would not make the criticizer more genius than Darwin. Moreover, Darwin talked about human descent from ape-like ancestors and not from the apes themselves. That means that he spoke for gradual progression (evolution)of life from the lower forms of life to the higher forms and NOT from the non- living. Natural Selection was brought in by him as one of the factors for engineering the change and its direction to which Neo-Darwinism has added- genetic hybridization, drift and Chance/sampling, etc. Of course, there could more causes as well. 2. Your research article on 'Life and Consciousness' is a very important critique on biological science and Darwinism. I understand your basic hypothesis "life from life and not from Non-life". Certainly here you are at a win point since science has 'assembled' the chemicals of the cell but could not make it a living cell Still science has progressed much in sorting out the physical contents of the cell and also informed us that the DNA carries forward our inheritance. Of course, from where the first living cell came and how it progressed to higher forms of life and to man, is also a problem which Vedantic or any other philosophy has no definite and acceptable answer; they may only bring in God to explain everything- the "Theory of Everything"- which appeals to common mind but not to the inquisitive scientists- who are also in search of the ultimate truth- which nobody knows yet. dissecting cell, molecule or the atom or going further to the minutest particle or even to the "God Particles" would not help us in explaining the 'live cell'. That is still a mystery- no body knows. With my sincere reverence Anek R. Sankhyan, MSc., PhD. Dr.Anek R. Sankhyan, MSc,PhD President: Palaeo Research Society Ward 5, IPH Colony, Ghumarwin-174021(H.P.),India Mob:08894166565 <https://sigads.rediff.com/RealMedia/ads/click_nx.ads/www.rediffmail.com/signatureline.htm@Middle?> Get your own *FREE* website, *FREE* domain & *FREE* mobile app with Company email. *Know More >* <http://track.rediff.com/click?url=___http://businessemail.rediff.com?sc_cid=sign-1-10-13___&cmp=host&lnk=sign-1-10-13&nsrv1=host> -- ---------------------------- 'Science and Scientist' Annual Conference Series http://scsiscs.org/conference Support & Participate in the Scientific Sankirtan Seva: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate Download Newsletter The Harmonizer http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin Join Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact ---------------------------- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. 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The Ved?ntic view, Communicative & Integrative Biology, 8:5, e1085138; DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138 'Science and Scientist' Annual Conference Series http://scsiscs.org/conference Support & Participate in the Scientific Sankirtan Seva: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate Download Newsletter The Harmonizer http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin Join Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact ---------------------------- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group. 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The Ved?ntic view, Communicative & Integrative Biology, 8:5, e1085138; DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138 'Science and Scientist' Annual Conference Series http://scsiscs.org/conference Support & Participate in the Scientific Sankirtan Seva: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate Download Newsletter The Harmonizer http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin Join Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact ---------------------------- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- ---------------------------- Bhakti Niskama Shanta (2015) Life and consciousness ? The Ved?ntic view, Communicative & Integrative Biology, 8:5, e1085138; DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138 'Science and Scientist' Annual Conference Series http://scsiscs.org/conference Support & Participate in the Scientific Sankirtan Seva: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate Download Newsletter The Harmonizer http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin Join Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact ---------------------------- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Online_Sadhu_Sanga. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.-- ---------------------------- Bhakti Niskama Shanta (2015) Life and consciousness ? The Ved?ntic view, Communicative & Integrative Biology, 8:5, e1085138; DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138 'Science and Scientist' Annual Conference Series http://scsiscs.org/conference Support & Participate in the Scientific Sankirtan Seva: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate Download Newsletter The Harmonizer http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin Join Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact ---------------------------- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." group. 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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.--The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered inScotland, with registration number SC005336.------------------------------Bhakti Niskama Shanta (2015) Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view, Communicative & Integrative Biology, 8:5, e1085138; DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138'Science and Scientist' Annual Conference Serieshttp://scsiscs.org/conferenceSupport & Participate in theScientific Sankirtan Seva: http://scienceandscientist.org/donateDownload NewsletterThe Harmonizerhttp://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizerBhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & SciencePrinceton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.orgSri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.orgDarwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/DarwinJoin Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructionsSadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsangaContact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact-------------------------------You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. 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Bhakti Niskama Shanta (2015) Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view, Communicative & Integrative Biology, 8:5, e1085138; DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Bhakti Niskama Shanta (2015) Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view, Communicative & Integrative Biology, 8:5, e1085138; DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Comments
Actually, according to Descartes, the dog cannot feel happiness because the dog has no consciousness. Unlike most others, who recognized that nonhumans were conscious but claimed they were not self-aware, and therefore, were cognitively inferior to humans, Descartes at least appears to have rejected nonhuman consciousness at all. He really did appear to believe (although this not entirely clear because he contradicts himself in certain passages) that animals were automatons or machines.
Those of us who are not vegan embrace the idea that it is morally acceptable to consume or wear animals because, although sentient (and conscious), nonhumans are not self-conscious and, therefore, have no interest in continuing to live. They exist in an "eternal present" (to use Singer's expression) and killing them is not a problem per se; as long as we minimize suffering, and act "humanely," we are acting morally.
Putting aside that we do not treat animals "humanely" (whatever that word means) that position, articulated by Bentham and others in the 19th century and continued today by Singer and others, begs the question about whether human self-awareness is the only sort of self-awareness that is relevant. In my work, I have argued that to be sentient is to be self-aware and that one can be self-aware even if one lives in an "eternal present."
Gary L. Francione
Board of Governors Distinguished Professor of Law
& Nicholas deB. Katzenbach Scholar of Law and Philosophy
Rutgers University School of Law
123 Washington Street
Newark, New Jersey 07102
Phone: 973-353-5321
Fax: 973-353-1445
----- Original Message -----
From: ntiwari@iitk.ac.in
To: "Online Sadhu Sanga" <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 2:55:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] "...abiogenesis is an insult to the life force."
This is interesting discussion. Actually, the idea of "abiogenesis" is
quite old. It was also, I think, proposed by Buddhists. On a superficial
level, it indeed appears that in such a world, there is no reason to have
"morality" and ideas like "compassion".
But, such an argument does not hold water when we carefully think about
it. It is so because regardless of the nature of our existence, we do feel
pain. And so do animals. It is immaterial whether we feel
sadness/pain/misery/.... as a consequence of some finely designed
machines, or because we were crafted by some higher entity. And because
all of us want to remain happy (inclduing the Cartesian dog), it is in
enlightened self-interest of all of us that we be compassionate, nice,
non-violent to the extent possible, and stay away from "evil".
The abiogenesis concept however has one limitation - it does not appeal to
our hearts. For it sends a message that we are all alone - left to fend
for ourselves. It does not assure us that once we die, we shall continue.
That death is the not the end-all. That there is a continuum. This is one
central "limitation" of Buddhist world view as well - as it makes folks
queasy. Whether such a world view is true or not can be discussed. But
such a world view does indeed induce queasiness in psyches. From a
scientific basis, however it does not matter. As science is blind to our
feelings and fears.
The other limitation of such a concept relates to plausability. I often
wonder whether the tremendous complexity we have in living systems could
indeed have been a pure outcome of chances.
nachiketa
> Dear Dr Helen Hansma
>
>
>
> The paper ‘Life and consciousness – TheVedāntic view’ states:
>
> Inthe seventeenth century, the French philosopher René Descartes claimed
> thatonly the human body has a soul, and all other organisms are mere
> automatonsmade of meat and bones. In Descartes' words “Animals are like
> robots: theycannot reason or feel pain.”11 In Introductionto Animal
> Rights, Gary Francione describes the anticipated consequences ofthis
> Cartesian view.
>
>
> “Descartesand his followers performed experiments in which they nailed
> animals by theirpaws onto boards and cut them open to reveal their beating
> hearts. They burned,scalded, and mutilated animals in every conceivable
> manner. When the animalsreacted as though they were suffering pain,
> Descartes dismissed the reaction asno different from the sound of a
> machine that was functioning improperly. A cryingdog, Descartes
> maintained, is no different from a whining gear that needs oil.”12
>
>
> Gary Francionealso wrotea message recently in this forum expressing his
> sincere concern over animalright violation. The abiogenesis
> concept even goes a step further and claims that Manis simply an
> enclosed membrane of chemicals. But what is the actual evidence for
> theseclaims? Following this view of life we cannot justify our respect to
> ourparents, elders, teachers or any respectable individual, because
> according tothis view life is nothing but a mere mechanical/chemical
> additive sums of chemicals.If a Man is simply an enclosed membrane of
> chemicals, then why should we punisha murderer? Following abiogenesis,
> there is no difference between performing the chemical reactions in a
> laboratory and brutal murder of a human being.
> Genes cannot decide the makeup of anorganism by themselves. Two
> monozygotic or identical twins will appear if asingle fertilized egg
> divides and produces two complete babies. If those twins areallowed to
> grow in two different environments, despite having identical genes,they
> will exhibit completely different cultural values, customs and other
> differences.Such cases clearly establish that environment plays a vital
> role in determiningdifferences, and genetic effects are of no importance
> whatsoever to explainthese differences. We also now know that living
> organisms within a species exhibitdifferent behavior even in the absence
> of differences in the environment, andhence, individual organisms execute
> actual novel acts. Therefore, evidence justifies the conclusion that
> living organisms possess “free will” {Brembs, B. (2010). Towards a
> scientific concept of free willas a biological trait: spontaneous actions
> and decision making ininvertebrates. Proceedings of the RoyalSociety B:
> Biological Sciences, Vol. 278, pp. 930-939}. Unlike matter (the motion of
> aninanimate object is determined by the laws of physics and chemistry),
> the primesymptom of life is that it exhibits free will or self-determined
> behavior,which is volitional and intentional, and which is self-caused or
> self-initiatedaction. Hence, life is self-caused – “Life Comes from
> Life”, and abiogenesis –“First life came from non-Life’”– is
> only an illusion of determinism in abiology.
>
> Determinism is founded on the beliefthat everything (including human
> action) that happens can be explainedprecisely by certain prior causal
> factors. According to this idea, every actionof an organism must have a
> genetic basis and thus undercuts moral responsibility.By strictly
> following determinism, one could argue that demons residing inpeople’s
> genes are responsible for criminal behavior and hence, a person’s
> DNAshould be convicted and not the person himself/herself. How can
> someonejudiciously be held responsible for something whose causes he/she
> couldn’tcontrol? Renowned American geneticist, Dr. T. Dobzhansky, stated
> {Dobzhansky,T. (1956). The biological basis of humanfreedom. New York:
> Columbia University Press, 1956. pp. 93-94, 132}:
>
>
>
> “Moral rightness or wrongness hasmeaning only in connection with persons
> who are free agents, and who areconsequently able to choose between
> different ideas and between possiblecourses of action. Ethics presupposes
> freedom... Ethics, as such, has nogenetic basis and are not the product of
> biological evolution.”
>
>
>
> Hence, without any actual scientificevidence to support abiogenesis, the
> practice of mass spreading of materialism in the form of textbooks and
> classroom teaching seems to be a brutal crime on humanity at large.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> B.N. Shanta
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, 26 October 2015 1:33 AM, Helen Hansma
> <helen.hansma@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From the conclusions to Bhakti Niskama Shanta's article, Life and
> Consciousness - the Vedantic View:"Hence, abiogenesis is aninsult to the
> life force."
>
> How does one test this?--