THELEMA
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This is a Group for Thelemites of all degrees; to discuss the:-- Inner Magick of Thelema; each member being an Equal, essential and Integral part of The Whole:---The Group;
For Love is The Law; Love under Will.
Members: 286
Latest Activity: 7 minutes ago
Please note; Read this post from bottom comment up, it is a thread from Temple Illuminatus, offsite.
Hari Krishna said;
There is interconnectivity and no coincidences; beggars the idea of free will while conditioned in material existence. This sounds orchestrated, karma is apparently well-lawed; karma is perfect almost unescapable justice. But to express pure free will, there must be freedom, at least to some degree!
As above, so below. There is orchestrated meaning and thus a symphony of inter-connectedness observable here, though often there is discordance as everyone wants to lead the orchestra, and then there is a perfect symphony in the self-realized mode of voluntary free will employed in mutual loving services with all pure beings, ie the spiritual realms. If you want to play different tunes, you have to go elsewhere to do so for a while, ie material existence. This is an analogy of existence; Goloka, the true eternal heavens, versus material or temporary restricted realms, such as largely seen on Earth.
So how is the minute particle of spirit to excercise free will without being first liberated? If there is interconnectivity, then one has to get out of that lesser bondage to realize spiritual harmony and voluntary orchestration. Thus adherence to higher energies free of control by the lower prison house rules would make sense for us.
If we are good as God in our purified existence, how did we come to be overwhelmed by some superior energy to fall into limited temporal planes? Apparently we are minute, not Supreme, and so are dependent upon association with superior powers for our status to be free at all. Otherwise, we become subject to powers that force repeated sufferings upon our temporarily inhabited bodies. We call this force in gegneral Maya, as opposed to Krsna, though she is also His pure servant/associate.
If we are not currently in a state of pure free will, eternal and in full knowledge, then how did we come to be conditioned? There must be forces greater than we who delude and imprison. The mechanism of false ego in itself binds us to repeated births and deaths in relative states of being. For example, i am born a black woman in a culture that practices witchcraft; so while in that body, my many desires will be accordingly. Then she dies, then she is reborn with different aspects dominant, but none is the real eternal self re-manifesting, she is tied or bound by a restricted ego, as karma keeps her bound in temporary designations of body.
So, we must align ourselves with the greatest power in order to be free from being overwhelmed by lesser relative powers. Our status as being NOT the Supreme is self-evident. We appear to be subordinate dependent supremes with smaller "S"'s!
brahmeti, pramamatmeti, bhagavan iti sabdyate
verse 11 of Sri Isopanisad explains,
“Only one who can learn the process of nescience and that of transcendental knowledge side by side can transcend the influence of repeated birth and death and enjoy the full blessings of immortality.”
Hare Krsna
The material worlds are like a reflection of the spiritual worlds.
Comment by Hari Krishna on Monday
Sri Isopanishad mantra 16 You are the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead, like unto the sun, as am I.
Comment by kristian murray flory on Monday
Yep,
Khabs Am Pekht.. Light In Extention.
Prism.. The Light is broken down into all colours of the spectrum.
Comment by Jonathan MacLean-Lambie on Monday
Indeed semantics.
"The numerous god names, archetypes and god forms are but the periodic table of a particular reality." quote Jonathan MacLean-Lambie
Khabs Am Pekht
☽✪☾Sgian-dubh-I-won't-let-them-Immanentize-the-eschaton
En-Ferus-Hostis-I-Tego-Arcana-Dei
The Magus 9°= 2□ XI°
Pan-Essence
ShWaLuxEL
Silent Paradox
Comment by Hari Krishna on Sunday
Honored Mother Shadow Dancer's answer is wise, and funny ! Respects, Tegwedd.
Here is a song i like, for you, kinda sentimental, i admit. kinda ecstatic, too, though.
Comment by Tegwedd ShadowDancer on Sunday
Maya, how She spins! You have uncovered one of the logical dichotomies present in the whole Thelemic doctrine. Well, all we can do is the best we can.
Comment by Hari Krishna on Sunday
Delightful answers, all deserving of thoughtful replies. Much of what you fellows say is the same as Krsna consciousness, of course, as truth is truth now matter where it is found.
The self is One with Godhead, and yet eternally seperate in maintaining individual identity; as they say it takes two to tango! acintya bheda abheda tattva, materially inconceivable simultaneous unity and diversity.
Still, it is ultimately all about flavor, or taste. We will, because we seek a taste or flavor of experience. this in turn is influenced by our state of ego, whether conditioned or pure. The Self is Krsna, yes, and is simultaneoulsy not, so we are in agreemnt in that aspect, that the pure self is not different in will with Godhead, is Godhead, and yes absolutely, pure expressions of enthusiasm for flavors of love, expressed as desire and action, what you perhaps call "will", when performed in the pure ego of spiritual self, are indeed perfect and unchanging in being eternal and primeval and essential. We call this state pure devotional service, krsna-prema, or Krsna consciousness.
It is a science, not a sentimental path. It is however, ecstatic and beyond mere logic, though we as bound entities are obliged to use same, this logical process, initially as we are guided to contact streams of power, that reciprocate, being themselves loving spiritual Beings of pure will.
We conceive of the energetic or male principle as Krsna, and the ecstatic principle of reciprocating love as female, Radha. together they are Godhead, and all of us are part and parcels of Their ecstasy.
Anyway, back to dithering about sects, i guess? lol - peace and well wishes to all.
Comment by Jonathan MacLean-Lambie on Sunday
Well said in what has been written Xeus. It is a thread of interest and I read all with understanding.
Let myself as a Mage clarify Understanding for it comes via a process. We can learn words from a book and call this knowledge, yet it is not understanding. We do go through programming throughout our life's, we can spout words from one guru or the next, yet that is not understanding.
Experience is the way to real knowledge, knowledge via experience becomes wisdom and then we consider such matters and formulate a way. The formulation of experience then is what and when we communicate and to whom is Understanding.
Now Mr Krishna here has their experienc,e that has formulated their ego mind by way of accepting the words of their guru.
Whilst we all exist in our temporal body on the mundane sphere we also do so through ego, yet we understand that via experience the Higher Will is Spirit. And simply put spirit is spirit, as we descend in to matter what information we process becomes clothed in subjective archetypes which create a reality which for the individual is real. And individuals will prove their reality no matter how bigoted or bias or wonderful and nice.
Unless and individual has had a similar experience spiritually or materially they will not conceive or accept your or my reality as valid.
“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law…
So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.
Do that, and no other shall say nay.
For pure will, unassuaged of purpose,
delivered from the lust of result,
is every way perfect.”
-The Book of the Law I:40, 42-
Will is Thelema 93 Love as Agape is also 93 - Agape to us is assigned as Unconditional Higher Love in particular in reference to the spiritual nature. As every one every thing is born of Stars our love encompasses all beings. We have recognised That Higher Will is Divine Love, thus we could also state that Love is the Law - (Lower Mental & Emotional Love,) under Will, (Divine Love).
Now Sri Krishna, as we should know is a Lunar Deity due to his lineage of matriarchal succession is hailed as the Supreme Personality of Godhead under the teachings of Bhakti Yoga, which is devotional yoga, put otherwise the devotees bow their will to his personality.
There is a similarity here, in devotion and love. Indeed is this then not Love Under Will. That will being the Higher Will?
Now Sri Krishna is an avatar of Vishnu and we as students of Magick will know or indeed understand the correspondences which can be found in 777 which reference where reference Krisna as a Christ a manifestation of God.
One could get lost in the theological arguments whether Vishnu is The Supreme Being in the Hindu Pantheon, after all he is three forms to consider Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver and Shiva the Destroyer, (Incidentally Shiva corresponds to The Great God Pan). LVX.
I know the experience of an Ashram and how it appears to devotees that they are surrendering their ego mind to their guru. Much easier to do in such a controlled environment, much harder to do in the everyday world, (Warriors Way). So if our Mr Krishna here is managing to live ego free? In what is accepted as everyday reality? And is Liberated from the Wheel of Rebirth and Personal Karma? Then I bow in deeper respect and swoop my pointed hat, for he will be the first being to of done so in my experience.
Personally I would rather continue to devote myself to creating my own path via formulated experience under spirit than to accept the views of numerous gurus, who are simply another human walking their way.
Comment by kristian murray flory on Sunday
There is a specific order to the various aspects of existence.. The Law.
Understand this, & the ability to act according to one's highest Self becomes realised.
I could go on..
Comment by kristian murray flory on Sunday
My brothers. Such wisdom. Not much more needs to be said. I hope it is received with conscious & determined thought.
Comment by Xeus Zayin on Sunday
The following notes are/were tedious;
The Serious Student may look further at
'The Message of The Master Therion'-
In The RA HOOR KHUIT Magickal Library; ETC.
Love under Will
ONE<>ALL
Comment by Xeus Zayin on Sunday
Perhaps some clarity?
The Message of The Master Therion
The quations in this Message are from Liber Legis The Book of the Law.H.B. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
"There is no Law beyond Do what thou wilt."
The word of the law is Thelema.
Thelema means Will. The Key to this Message is this word Will.
The first obvious meaning of this Law is confirmed by antithesis;
"The word of Sin is Restriction." Again
: "Thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay.
For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect."
Take this carefully; it seems to imply a theory that if every man and every woman did his and her will lthe true will lthere would be no clashing.
"Every man and every woman is a star,"
and each star moves in an appointed path without interference.
Thre is plenty of room for all; it is only disorder that creates confusion.
From these considerations it should be clear that
"Do what thou wilt" does not mean "Do what you like."
It is the apotheosis of Freedom; but it is also the strictest possible bond.
Do what thou wiltthen do nothing else.
Let nothing deflect thee from that austere and holy task.
Liberty is absolute to do thy will; but seek to do any other think whatever,
and instantly obstacles must arise
. Every act that is not in definite course of that one orbit is erratic, an hindrance.
Will must not be two, but one.
Note further that this will is not only to be pure,
that is, single, as explained above,
but also "unassuaged of purpose."
This strange phrase must give us pause.
It may mean that any purpose in the will would damp it
; clearly the "lust of result" is a thing from
which it must be delivered.
But the phrase may also be interpreted as if it read
"with purpose unassuaged"i.e., with tireless energy.
The conception is, therefore, of an eternal motion,
, infinite and unalterable
. It is Nirvana, only dynamic instead of static
Comment by Xeus Zayin on Sunday
Ach A Vie!
WORDS!
The Will is The innermost Beiong of The Higher Self or Atman-True Soul;
It is YOU! Another term for God; for, Dear Brother/Sister
At the Hieghest Heaven and Lowest Hell---You only find---yourself!
WORDS! Don't imagine the spoon is the food
Love Light to
ONE<>ALL
Comment by Hari Krishna on Sunday
I wilt to join.
I still feel that love is a better motivator than "will", whatever that is but desire expressed. ie what you love is expressed.
i think the source is more important than the temporary manifestations of that source ie love, but then, they are not really different, are they?
Howdy! Hare Krishna. In Sanskrita below; Greetings and well wishes! Maha mantra for deliverance from false temporary egos etc.
Comment by Frater AVIAF on Sunday
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law
The will is, curiously, not recognized as the central and fundamental function of the ego. It has often been depreciated as being ineffective against the various drives and power of the imagination, or it has been considered with suspicion as leading to self-assertion (will-to-power). But the latter is a perverted use of the will, while the apparant use futility of the will is due only to a faulty and unintellegent use.
-- Roberto Assagioli, MD, Psychosynthesis
The will is ineffective only when it attempts to act in opposition to the imagination and to the other psychological functions, while its skillful and consequently successful use consists in regulating and directing all other functions toward a deliberately chosen and affirmed aim.
"...thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect."
--Liber AL vel Legis, chap. I vv. 42-44
Love is the law...love under will.
Comments
Comment by Hari Krishna just now Delete Comment
prema dhana vina vyartha daridra-jivana
dasa kari vetan more deha prema dhana
Life without Love is useless and poor they say,
Appoint me in Thy service, Oh Lord with Love as my pay.
"Similarly, we must find out the essential part of a living being which is always companion with him. That part of constant companion of the living being is his eternal quality, and the eternal part of the living being's quality is his eternal religion."
Srila Prabhupada