The answer to your Istagosthi questions are as follows: Unless one is a resident of Krishna Loka, one cannot be a Spiritual Master. That is the first proposition. A layman cannot be a Spiritual Master, and if he becomes so then he will simply create disturbance. And who is a liberated person? One who knows Krishna. It is stated in BG, fourth chapter, anyone who knows Krishna in truth is immediately liberated, and after quitting the present body, he immediately goes to Krishna. That means he becomes a resident of Krishna Loka. As soon as one is liberated he is immediately a resident of Krishna Loka, and anyone who knows the truth of Krishna can become Spiritual Master. That is the version of Lord Caitanya. So to summarize the whole thing, it is to be understood that a bona fide Spiritual Master is a resident of Krishna Loka.Your next question, whether the Spiritual Master was formerly a conditioned soul, actually a bona fide Spiritual Master is never a conditioned soul. There are three kinds of liberated persons. They are called 1) sadhan siddha, 2) kripa siddha, and 3) nitya siddha. Sadhan siddha means one who has attained perfection by executing the regulative principles of devotional service. Kripa siddha means one who has attained perfection by the special mercy of Krishna and the Spiritual Master, and nitya siddha means one who was never contaminated. The symptoms of nitya siddha is that from the beginning of his life he is attached to Krishna, and he is never tired of rendering service to Krishna. So we have to know what is what by these symptoms. But when one is actually on the siddha platform there is no such distinction as to who is sadhan, kripa, or nitya siddha. When one is siddha, there is no distinction what is what. Just like when the river water glides down to the Atlantic Ocean nobody can distinguish which portion was the Hudson River or some other river. Neither is there any necessity to make any such distinction. Actually, every living entity is eternally uncontaminated, although he may be in the material touch. This is the version of the Vedas. Asanga ayam purusha—the living entity is uncontaminated. Just like when there is a drop of oil in water you can immediately distinguish the oil from the water, and the water never mixes with the oil. Similarly, a living entity, although in material contact, is always distinct from the matter.You are correct when you say that when the Spiritual Master speaks it should be taken that Krishna is speaking. That is a fact. A Spiritual Master must be liberated. It does not matter if he has come from Krishna Loka or he is liberated from here. But he must be liberated. The science of how one is liberated is explained above, but when one is liberated, there is no need of distinction whether he has come directly from Krishna Loka or from the material world. But in the broader sense everyone comes from Krishna Loka. When one forgets Krishna he is conditioned, when one remembers Krishna he is liberated. I hope this will clear up these points. I hope this will meet you in good health.Your ever well-wisher,A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
This information from Srila Prabhupada, that a bonafide spiritual master is a resident of Krsna loka; this implies nitya siddhas may be eternal associates, like Subala, who is not jiva per se; he is gopa, like a gopi is to Radhe, only to Krsna.
So, Srila Prabhupada is a specific Being, and i have my arguments in that regards. I am not saying I have SEEN him, but with my half-eyes, i think i have perhaps glimpsed, and would anyone be so bold to discuss? Please , no remarks like, oh, he is an offender to speculate etc thanks very much...
I don't know Prabhu, but Prabhupad says so much in this very article that removes my confusion for whether it is important if spiritual master should be nitya-siddha or some other way siddha:
"But when one is actually on the siddha platform there is no such distinction as to who is sadhan, kripa, or nitya siddha. When one is siddha, there is no distinction what is what. Just like when the river water glides down to the Atlantic Ocean nobody can distinguish which portion was the Hudson River or some other river. Neither is there any necessity to make any such distinction."
There is an implication though; an eternal associate never falls down, yes? Therefore, given a nitya siddha and a krpa siddha, which one is possibly a gopi or gopa, a manjari? The sadhana krpa siddha cannot be, as they never fall .
Elsewhere, SP says that one who attains to perfect Krsna consciousness is nitya siddha and those not so, are nitya badha. One may change one's position. So use of the word nitya siddha does vary. There are those nitya siddhas who never fall down ever, and those who attain to this position of liberation.
Because Srila Prabhupada says that, "But when one is actually on the siddha platform there is no such distinction as to who is sadhan, kripa, or nitya siddha. When one is siddha, there is no distinction what is what." So I think it doesn't matter, and if one's original servitorhood to Krishna can be revived in the advanced stage, i.e purified from all material contamination, by following the gopis in Vrndavana in their mood following one's natural attraction after complete purification, one can become an assistant of the gopis, manjaris in serving Radha-Krsna.
Yes, Prabhu, only yesterday I was reading Srila Prabhupada say this: "One who is engaged in the Lord’s devotional service twenty-four hours daily and never forgets the Lord is called nitya-siddha." (Purport to 11.89, The Beda-kirtana Pastimes, Madhya-lila, Sri Caitanya-caritamrta)
So it does not matter what we can become or cannot, because as much as we love Krsna, He will certainly reciprocate that much, so there cannot be reason for anguish, is it not, Prabhu? Please clarify :)
Dear Suresh; It does not matter how you judge these services; one has a constitutional service that is perfect for you alone. My angle of approach on this matter is that some acaryas are not jiva category.
I don't know where the "anguish" you mention comes into the discussion? Care to clarify? For example, I can say for my own part, I care not what "position" I may hopefully one day eventually to be allowed to serve in, as my natural position will be realized. There is no question higher or lower; Godhead is One. Whatever is one's best situation, one's nature, that will be the situation in Krsna's Kingdom, or so that is my best understanding on this matter.
Yes, laulyam, to desire one's constitutional position with greed; that is wanted. Hopefully the devotee sooner or later develops an almost irrational greed or madness to achieve the desired goal of devotional service. This is a type of anguish, as exemplified by the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Himself, Who was absorbed in remembrances of Krsna in the mood of seperation, always longing for meeting and nice service.
Yes Prabhu, that is very nice. The anguish I was mentioning was that some devotees find it hard to accept that there are some souls who can never fall down. They miss the point that in any circumstance it is their personal choice to decide to be independent of Krsna or otherwise. Because there are some souls who are staunchly devoted to Krsna that they will never give up His service, we should simply try to engage ourselves in their service and not be envious of them that, 'Oh, Krsna is partial to those souls.' It is a matter of personal choice of the spirit soul, and all facilities are provided for all souls to be dependent on or independent of Krsna. Because some of them never choose to be independent of Krsna is no reason to be envious of thjem, but reason to keep their lotus feet always upon our heads for advancing in spiritual life. That was the thing, I was wanting to say, Prabhu :)
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This information from Srila Prabhupada, that a bonafide spiritual master is a resident of Krsna loka; this implies nitya siddhas may be eternal associates, like Subala, who is not jiva per se; he is gopa, like a gopi is to Radhe, only to Krsna.
So, Srila Prabhupada is a specific Being, and i have my arguments in that regards. I am not saying I have SEEN him, but with my half-eyes, i think i have perhaps glimpsed, and would anyone be so bold to discuss? Please , no remarks like, oh, he is an offender to speculate etc thanks very much...
I don't know Prabhu, but Prabhupad says so much in this very article that removes my confusion for whether it is important if spiritual master should be nitya-siddha or some other way siddha:
"But when one is actually on the siddha platform there is no such distinction as to who is sadhan, kripa, or nitya siddha. When one is siddha, there is no distinction what is what. Just like when the river water glides down to the Atlantic Ocean nobody can distinguish which portion was the Hudson River or some other river. Neither is there any necessity to make any such distinction."
Very nice, Srila Prabhupada clarifies everything so nicely! All glories to Sri Srila Prabhupada!
There is an implication though; an eternal associate never falls down, yes? Therefore, given a nitya siddha and a krpa siddha, which one is possibly a gopi or gopa, a manjari? The sadhana krpa siddha cannot be, as they never fall .
Elsewhere, SP says that one who attains to perfect Krsna consciousness is nitya siddha and those not so, are nitya badha. One may change one's position. So use of the word nitya siddha does vary. There are those nitya siddhas who never fall down ever, and those who attain to this position of liberation.
Because Srila Prabhupada says that, "But when one is actually on the siddha platform there is no such distinction as to who is sadhan, kripa, or nitya siddha. When one is siddha, there is no distinction what is what." So I think it doesn't matter, and if one's original servitorhood to Krishna can be revived in the advanced stage, i.e purified from all material contamination, by following the gopis in Vrndavana in their mood following one's natural attraction after complete purification, one can become an assistant of the gopis, manjaris in serving Radha-Krsna.
Yes, Prabhu, only yesterday I was reading Srila Prabhupada say this: "One who is engaged in the Lord’s devotional service twenty-four hours daily and never forgets the Lord is called nitya-siddha." (Purport to 11.89, The Beda-kirtana Pastimes, Madhya-lila, Sri Caitanya-caritamrta)
So it does not matter what we can become or cannot, because as much as we love Krsna, He will certainly reciprocate that much, so there cannot be reason for anguish, is it not, Prabhu? Please clarify :)
Dear Suresh; It does not matter how you judge these services; one has a constitutional service that is perfect for you alone. My angle of approach on this matter is that some acaryas are not jiva category.
I don't know where the "anguish" you mention comes into the discussion? Care to clarify? For example, I can say for my own part, I care not what "position" I may hopefully one day eventually to be allowed to serve in, as my natural position will be realized. There is no question higher or lower; Godhead is One. Whatever is one's best situation, one's nature, that will be the situation in Krsna's Kingdom, or so that is my best understanding on this matter.
Yes, laulyam, to desire one's constitutional position with greed; that is wanted. Hopefully the devotee sooner or later develops an almost irrational greed or madness to achieve the desired goal of devotional service. This is a type of anguish, as exemplified by the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Himself, Who was absorbed in remembrances of Krsna in the mood of seperation, always longing for meeting and nice service.
Yes Prabhu, that is very nice. The anguish I was mentioning was that some devotees find it hard to accept that there are some souls who can never fall down. They miss the point that in any circumstance it is their personal choice to decide to be independent of Krsna or otherwise. Because there are some souls who are staunchly devoted to Krsna that they will never give up His service, we should simply try to engage ourselves in their service and not be envious of them that, 'Oh, Krsna is partial to those souls.' It is a matter of personal choice of the spirit soul, and all facilities are provided for all souls to be dependent on or independent of Krsna. Because some of them never choose to be independent of Krsna is no reason to be envious of thjem, but reason to keep their lotus feet always upon our heads for advancing in spiritual life. That was the thing, I was wanting to say, Prabhu :)
And you certainly just said it beautifully in the above comment ! Hare Krsna.