Devotee (9): What I meant to say is he does not want to chant with women in the temple room. I have seen this before. He says, "I do not want to chant in a room with women. I would rather be away from the women."
Prabhupada: That means he has got distinction between men and women. He is not yet pandit. Panditah sama-darsinah. He is a fool. That's all. He is a fool. So what is the value of his words? He is a fool.
Indian man (4): So he'll go first to make...
Prabhupada: He should always consider, "There is woman, that's all. She is my mother." That's all. Matrvat para-daresu. Then what is the...? Suppose you sit down with your mother and chant. What is the wrong? But he is not so strong; then he should go to the forest. Why he should live in the Nairobi city? On the street there are so many women. He will walk on the street closing the eyes? (laughter) This is all rascaldom. They are rascals. They are not devotees, simply rascals.
Conversation - November 2, 1975, Nairobi
- The bhakti-yoga process is that if I do not like to see artificially the beauty of woman or man, if I try to see the beauty of Kṛṣṇa, naturally my, this propensity of seeing beautiful man or woman becomes extinguished. You do not require to shut your eyes. There are so many beautiful girls sitting. I do not require to shut my eyes. If my mind is concentrated on the beauty of Kṛṣṇa I can see these beautiful girls as Kṛṣṇa's gopīs. That is another vision. So artificially if I close my eyes and if some beautiful girl is in my imagination even after closing my eyes here, what is the use of closing your eyes? Lecture on BG 5.26-29 -- Los Angeles, February 12, 1969:
- So by force you cannot control the senses. That is not... This is... There are many instances. Even great yogis they have failed. This is artificial way of controlling the senses. The real sense control is that you purify your sense in the activities of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is real sense control. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170 ). Hṛṣīka means senses and hṛṣīkeśa means Kṛṣṇa. When you apply your senses for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, then it is called bhakti. And when your senses are engaged in the service of Kṛṣṇa it cannot be engaged otherwise. Otherwise the sense will be engaged in the sense objects. Therefore there is failure. Those who are not engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, simply artificially trying, they fail. Viśvāmitra Muni, Durvāsā Muni, there are many great instances. These are artificial. But that is a process recommended. We may be successful to a certain extent but in this age it is very difficult to practice such things. Nobody can practice how to control the senses from the sense object. So you have to employ your senses in the service of the owner of the senses. Kṛṣṇa is the owner of the..., Hṛṣīkeśa, the lord of the senses. That people they do not know. I am thinking that this is my eye, these are my eyes. But actually these are explained in the Upaniṣads. Just like the sunshine. When the sun sees you, you can see the sun. Now at night the sun does not see you so you cannot see the sun. You cannot see the sun, you cannot see anything because the sun does not see you. Similarly the Upaniṣad says when Kṛṣṇa sees you or Kṛṣṇa sees, then you can see. Just like I have got these spectacles. The spectacle is not seeing, my eyes are seeing, therefore spectacle is seeing. Similarly, actually all the senses are acting because Kṛṣṇa is acting. As soon as Kṛṣṇa desires that these senses will not work, it will not work. So in spite of your claim that this is my hand, this is my eyes, this is my mouth, it will not work. So the people they do not know. The bhakti-yoga practice says hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170 )
- Saso Vrtovec Therefore sannyas is forbidden in kali-yuga in sastra. It is EXEPTION to the RULE and NOT THE RULE. All the acaryas have introduced sannyas as EXCEPTION for preaching purposes only. Even Lord Caitanya Himself married 2 times before taking sannyas. He took sannyas ONLY for preaching purposes - to convert mayavadi saniyasis. We [Gaudiya math and ISKCON] took sanyas as the RULE and NOT the exception, so there are so many problems and fall downs because of that. We can see that Srila Prabhupada saw what was happening and forbade taking further saniyas:
“This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis. And those sannyasis who have fallen,you get them married, live like a... No more this showbottle, cheating.«
SP mentioned this in one of his conversations (or lectures) with his desciples. Sorry, don't have the refference. - Ines Naradić i am glad so many devotees like this post smile emoticon the rascals are in the minority smile emoticon
- Saso Vrtovec
- The topic ob bramacari/sannyasi life in kali-yuga is a very complex one....But the fact remains that sannyasa is FORBIDDEN in kali-yuga by sastra and is only sometimes allowed as an exception NOT the RULE. So the final conclusion for the agitated brahmacaris is to either go live in the forest or get themselves married. But it is a long and complex topic and not easily understood by women, because the 3 modes affect women and their senses much differently then men....
Ines Naradić it is because the men do not actually take up the path of bhakti in their heart, but the artificial sense repression, as explained by prabhupada... because their aim is also not love of god, but increasing their personal power and ego through austerity etc... - Ines Naradić it is because the men do not actually take up the path of bhakti in their heart, but the artificial sense repression, as explained by prabhupada... because their aim is also not love of god, but increasing their personal power and ego through austerity etc...
- Ines Naradić ... which is why they become so incredibly hard hearted. the real devotee men you can recognize immediately. they are usually despised by the rascals.
- Ines Naradić The swanlike Vaisnavas valiantly remain and work among men. They are the shelter of women and are respected by them. They take part in social activities and gain much experience. They teach their children artha-sastra and thus become known as headmasters.
(Sri Krsna-samhita Chapter 10/13), Srila Bhaktivinode - Saso Vrtovec There are two types of devotees acaryas speak of (an SP also mentions them, but not directly): real true devotees and false devotees - pretenders.Acaryas call them by the name "kali-chella". And anybody can fall into this trap of pretense if he/she is not careful enough. We should always consider the verse BG 9.30 api su duracara...." One may act in a despicable way, but if one is sincere, he is to be considered a saint". So better to be an honest sinner then a FALSE renounciate. And what is sin and what is not is also not so celar in todays crazy society. We have to follow sastra. Or - as Rupa Goswami has nicely explained: niyamagraha - to NEGLECT the rules is a mistake, and to follow them for the rules sake is also a mistake. The rules are a TOOL , not a goal. The GOAL of KC is to develop all the 26 quallities of devotees (demigods) and to become transcendental and NOT to BECOME perfect renunciates. After all, when we will leave this body at the time of death, we will be judged by our consciousness and NOT our ability to control the senses. The real goal of KC is: "to allways remember Krishna and never forget Him" and not to follow all the rules perfectly. If our hearts become hard and we are not happy, that means we are doing something wrong.
- Saso Vrtovec A real vaishnava does not despise, hate or envy anyone. If he does, he is either a false devotee or not yet a pure devotee.
- Saso Vrtovec " By their fruits are they to be recognized".
- Ines Naradić i have also noticed that the real goal, love of god, has been replaced with some sort of a ritualistic phrisee/smarta religion on the one hand, and mayavadi new agism where anything goes, on the other.
unless you think and feel for yourself, and follow your own conscience, it's easy to get carried away by deviant institutionalized association. - Ines Naradić - What is the most harmful association in the world?
- A dharmadhvaji is a person who has no devotion or renunciation in his heart but makes a show of it externally. He wears the clothes of a devotee to accomplish materialistic ends in a duplicitous manner.
There is no worse association in the whole world than that of a dharmadhvaji. One should rather associate with sense enjoyers.
Being deceitful, the dharmadhvajis take on the appearance of devotees with a desire to cheat everyone, and to fulfill their crooked desires, they cheat the foolish by helping them in their rascaldom.
Some of the dharmadhvajis become gurus and others become disciples, and by trickery, they accumulate wealth, women, false prestige, and material assets.
If one gives up the association of crooked hypocrites, one can honestly engage in devotional service. (Sajjana-toshani 10/11) - Saso Vrtovec a dharmadhvaji a the same as kali-chella - a HYPOCRITE .The only problem is, we think they are only ouside ISKCON. But we are wrong. It is kali-yuga and they - the hypocrites - are everywhere and anyone not carefull enough can become infected by this hypocrisy. This is the age of kali and HYPOCRISY and QUARREL is EVERYWHERE - including inside ISKCON. Unfortunately frown emoticon
- Ines Naradić Any woman should be looked upon as mother. This is Culture. Except his married wife, all women should be treated as mother. The brahmacaris were taught like that. This is Culture. Simply they are trying to elope other's wife other's women exploit them. And they're Cultured. There is No Culture at the Present Moment.
-Srila Prabhupada, Morning Walk Conversation, October 25, 1975. - Ines Naradić - What is the most harmful association in the world?
- A dharmadhvaji is a person who has no devotion or renunciation in his heart but makes a show of it externally. He wears the clothes of a devotee to accomplish materialistic ends in a duplicitous manner.
There is no worse association in the whole world than that of a dharmadhvaji. One should rather associate with sense enjoyers.
Being deceitful, the dharmadhvajis take on the appearance of devotees with a desire to cheat everyone, and to fulfill their crooked desires, they cheat the foolish by helping them in their rascaldom.
Some of the dharmadhvajis become gurus and others become disciples, and by trickery, they accumulate wealth, women, false prestige, and material assets.
If one gives up the association of crooked hypocrites, one can honestly engage in devotional service. (Sajjana-toshani 10/11)
Thomas Tamohara Dasa Garden whole thing copied and reposted at Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON ; SPIRITNET.
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Jaya Basu Gopal! Haribol, Prabhu!