Sakhya or Madhurya, Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari

[Tamohara dasa ADMIN.]

Sakhya or Madhurya

Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari

"Despite the objective superiority of gopi-bhava, the venerable
Krishnadasa Kaviraja Goswami makes it clear the best rasa is the one
that is subjectively best for each devotee."

Q. While you believe that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa, these
words from his commentary on Sri Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 11.31)
indicate to me that he must be in madhurya-rasa.

"There are different types of devotees--those in the santa-rasa
(neutrality), dasya-rasa (servitude), sakhya-rasa (friendship),
vatsalya-rasa (parental affection), and madhurya-rasa (conjugal love).
Although all the rasas are on the transcendental platform,
madhurya-rasa is the supreme transcendental mellow. Consequently, it is
concluded that the worship of devotees engaged in the Lord's service in
madhurya-rasa is the supreme spiritual activity. Sri Caitanya
Mahaprabhu and his followers mainly worship Lord Krishna in
madhurya-rasa. . . . It is he only who distributed love of Krishna
while exhibiting the superexcellence of loving Krishna in the conjugal
rasa." Any comments?

A. Madhurya-rasa and manjari-bhava, or Radha-dasyam in particular, is
the highest reach of Mahaprabhu's divine dispensation. There is no
question about this. Sri Rupa refers to it as tad bhavecchamayi
kamanuga bhakti, or bhakti that follows the course of kama by way of
attaching itself to the bhava of Radha, as opposed to sambhogecchamayi
kamanuga bhakti, in which the devotee seeks a direct conjugal
relationship with Krishna and ostensibly may be a competitor of Radha.
Because no intimacy with Krishna is greater than that of Radha's, if
one seeks the greatest intimacy, one can experience it by way of
attaching oneself to her bhava by becoming her handmaiden.

Within raganuga-bhakti, kamanuga (gopi-bhava) is distinguished from
sambandhanuga (dasya, sakhya, and vatsalya) in that it is not based on
any legitimate relationship (sambandha), such as servitude, friendship,
or parental love. In other words, parakiya is illegitimate within the
social fabric of the Vraja-lila. However, because it gives the highest
pleasure to Krishna, it is the highest form of dharma, samsiddhir hari
tosanam--prema dharma in its fullest expression.

This is the Gaudiya conclusion (siddhanta) on this matter, so
regardless of an acarya's personal sentiment, he or she will teach this
siddhanta, especially when commenting on Caitanya-caritamrita where
this subject is central. I also teach this despite my personal
attraction to sakhya-rasa. Thus Srila Prabhupada also taught it despite
his stated personal affinity for sakhya-rasa. Objective truth is one
thing and personal subjective affinity is another. Sometimes we will
speak about one and sometimes the other. If we look carefully at the
statements of Srila Prabhupada, it is clear when he is speaking about
the objective truth of gopi-bhava's position in the lila for the
purpose of teaching the siddhanta and when he is speaking subjectively
about his own personal affinity. Sri Rupa wrote about all the rasas
equally in his book Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, but in Ujjvala-nilamani he
wrote specifically about his own personal sentiment (madhurya).

Despite the objective superiority of gopi-bhava, the venerable
Krishnadasa Kaviraja Goswami makes it clear that the best rasa is the
one that is subjectively best for each devotee. The idea is that while
we teach that gopi-bhava is the most intimate relationship with
Krishna, the best relationship with Krishna is the one each devotee
personally cherishes. Thus in the final analysis it can be said that
one rasa is not higher than another, even when from a neutral
perspective gopi-bhava is the highest.

Let us look for a moment at how a sakhya-rasa bhakta will experience
mantra-mayi-upasana in relation to a description of the lila.
Mantra-mayi-upasana in mentioned in Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura's
commentary on Brahma-samhita. It consists of meditating on a still
picture of the eternal movie of Krishna-lila represented in one mantra
or verse. In the following Bhagavatam verse, the gopis voice their
love:

"O friends, those eyes that see the beautiful faces of the sons of
Maharaja Nanda are certainly fortunate. As these two sons enter the
forest, surrounded by their friends, driving the cows before them, they
hold their flutes to their mouths and glance lovingly on the residents
of Vrindavana. For those who possess eyes, we think there is no greater
object of vision." (SB 10.21.7)

Here the gopis ostensibly glorify the love of the cowherds for Balarama
and Krishna, describing the supreme object of vision as the sight of
them entering the forest with their friends and cows. How much better
is it, then, to be in that picture and enter the forest along with them
as cowherds? This is the gopas' great fortune, and this wistful
statement by the gopis indicates a certain jealousy toward Krishna's
friends, for whom there are no obstacles to spending the entire day
with Krishna. This verse thus supports the cowherds' subjective
reality, in which they consider fraternal love to be most desirable. A
sakhya-rasa bhakta will meditate on this verse and see it as
confirmation that his love is the best. Even the gopis say so!

However, Balarama and Krishna together are not the object of love for
the gopis headed by Radha. Thus it can be said that from the madhurya
vantage point they mention Balarama in this verse only to veil their
love for Krishna, which they cannot express as openly as the cowherds
can express their love for Krishna. By mentioning Balarama and the
cowherds along with Krishna, they dissimulate their conjugal paramour
love for Krishna. Furthermore, if a practitioner's heart follows the
love of the gopis, this verse will speak to him accordingly and he will
have no difficulty making Balarama fade into the background of the
verse. As Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakura has explained, those in
gopi-bhava will hear the gopis in this verse speaking only of Krishna's
face adorned with flute and looking back at them: "Those who give up
shyness to drink the nectar of that face playing the flute (Krishna),
among the two sons of Nanda herding cows in the forest with their
friends, have fortunate senses and not others."

Q. There are some verses in Caitanya-caritamrta (2.8.201-6) that seem
to indicate that only a devotee in madhurya-rasa can bestow this rasa
on another. Does that mean that if Srila Prabhupada was in sakhya-rasa
he could not give his disciples madhurya-rasa?

A. The verses you mentioned do not tell us that only a devotee in
madhurya-rasa can bestow madhurya-rasa on another, as some claim. They
merely say that in order to enter gopi-bhava one must follow in the
footsteps of the gopis. This option is open to all of Prabhupada's
disciples. He has given them Harinama, and Nama is cintamani svarupa.
He has also given them the Gopala mantra and "gopijana vallabhaya
svaha" is available therein among other options. Does Srila Prabhupada
not have the power to place one under the care of Sri Rupa at the
appropriate stage if one so desires? Where does this idea come from?

It is speculative or worse to dismiss Srila Prabhupada's own stated
sentiment as if it were not his eternal affinity and then try to force
him into the sentiment one may want him to be in (madhurya-rasa). It
only makes matters worse to do so based on the misunderstanding that if
Srila Prabhupada were in sakhya-rasa he would be incapable of
delivering his disciples who desire gopi bhava to their desired
destination. And there are examples of disciples attaining different
bhavas from that of their gurus. Syamananda Pandit of course comes to
mind. His eternal guru is in sakhya-rasa, whereas he is in
madhurya-rasa.

In Srila Prabhupada's case, as in the case of Syamananda's guru
Hridaya Caitanya, there is considerable evidence that he had a
preference for priya-narma sakhya bhava (see the booklet O My Friend!).
Radha-sahasra-nama says that when Radha desires to taste sakhya-rasa,
she manifests as Subala, the foremost priya-narma sakha. Note that
priya-narma sakhya-rasa has also been labeled sakhi-bhava by Sri Rupa.
That is to say that there is a madhurya component in this rasa.

Q. If your diksa guru Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa and your siksa
guru B. R. Sridhara Maharaja is in madhurya-rasa, wouldn't you be
obliged to worship the guru who is in madhurya-rasa on a higher level?

A. You ask that if one has a diksa guru in sakhya-rasa and siksa guru
in madhurya-rasa, will the madhurya-rasa guru be given more respect
because madhurya-rasa is higher than sakhya-rasa? The answer is that
both will be given equal respect. All considered, the most important
guru is the one who is helping us the most at a particular point in
time. Therefore we should be careful not to allow mundane conceptions
of lower and higher to enter our minds in such matters. My gurus love
Krishna perfectly, although differently in terms of details, and my
ideal is to do the same by their grace with details of my own, albeit
following the general course of one of my gurus (sakhya or madhurya for
example). In Gokula the gopis are not considered higher than the gopas
and given special deference. Narada may come there and give deference
to the gopis' love, but this deference is derived from tatastha-vicara,
or observing from an objective, neutral vantage point. In the Vraja
lila this vantage point is not prevalent, but rather each devotee's
subjective vantage point prevails. And our ideal is to enter there.

Let me also mention that the priya-narma sakhya-rasa, which is a
mixture of sakhya and madhurya, exceeds in excellence vatsalya-rasa and
reaches the pitch of the sthayi of mahabhava. Within mahabhava it does
not reach as far as the mahabhava of the handmaidens of Radha, but
Visvanath Chakaravarti Thakura has written that they are almost the
same in the intimacy of assisting Radha Krishna.


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[Tamohara dasa ADMIN.]

Bhaktivinoda Thakura, from Caitanya-siksamrta, Chapter 7, Part 2:

 

There are two types of worshippers: those with knowledge of rasa and those without

knowledge of rasa. Those without knowledge of rasa also experience a slight degree of rasa.

Being ignorant of the truth, they call it meditation, concentration, absorption, trance, prayer, or worship. 

 

When people become absorbed in prayer or worship, an experience rises from

their inner soul, shakes the mind, and affects the outer body like lightning. They realize that

if they could remain in that state constantly there would be no more suffering. What is that

state? Is it material, mental or something opposite of material? Searching the whole universe,

nothing can be found to compare to this experience. It cannot be counted among the subtle

side effects of material energy such as electricity or magnetism. 

 

Examining mind, it cannot be found there either. In the negation of material thought as well, 

there is nothing comparable. From where has this experience come? 

Examining carefully, it may be found that it is coming from the pure existence of the soul, 

which is presently covered by matter. When engaged in the act of worship they experience this state, 

but it is not analyzed in detail. Let us examine it more closely.

 

This indescribable state is a particular quality or function. The function must have a subject

or asraya. The pure soul, which is covered by the material body and material mind, is the

shelter of that function. On realizing that the soul is small and dependent on a higher power,

this function suddenly reveals itself, like the flame that appears on striking a match. The

thing to which the function moves is its only object, visaya. By proximity to the object

through the process of worship, the function can emerge from the asraya (the soul) and flow

towards the object, visaya. 

 

This function is the sthayi bhava. The practitioner is the asraya

and God is the visaya. The qualities of God are the stimuli, uddipana. When the function is

combined with the subject and the object, immediately anubhavas or external symptoms

appear in the subject. One or more of the thirteen anubhavas will certainly appear in the

person. Some of the thirty-one vyabhicari bhavas will also assist in the external manifestation

of the experience. Some persons will also experience some of the sattvika bhavas.

 

Now consider, what is worship? After analyzing all the parts of worship, it may be

understood that worship is nothing but rasa. Worship is attainment of a state of experience

stemming from a basic state of consciousness assisted by vibhava, anubhavas, sattvika bhavas

and vyabhicari bhavas. Thus worship is rasa. 

 

Material action, material thought and nirvisesa anti-material thought are not worship. 

These are all without rasa. All groups of worshippers depend on the actions of rasa, 

but being ignorant of the process of rasa, they cannot be made to understand 

rasa in a scientific way. This is due to the influence of previous bad association.

 

Worship as rasa is of three forms: restricted, slightly revealed, and fully revealed. Some

people, experiencing rasa in a restricted way, cannot feel it after leaving the activity of

worship. The reason is that they are enjoying material rasa. As no one can live without rasa,

the lives of these people are full of material rasa. Spiritual rasa is a temporary thing, like a

flash of lightning in their life. 

 

By association of devotees and guru, this condition becomes

elevated and gradually begins to open slightly, but by lack of good association and by

teachings from atheists or impersonalists, this worship becomes gradually more restricted,

extremely restricted, and then almost lost. This is very unfortunate for the soul.

 

In the slightly opened state, worship penetrates into the life of the person. The person

gravitates towards places where they can hear topics of rasa. Such a person is indifferent to

atheists and impersonalists. In the fully opened state, rasa is fully realized. Being realized, it

acts continuously. In the opened state, rasa is revealed in the forms of santa, dasya, sakhya,

vatsalya and madhura, but those qualified for sakhya, vatsalya and madhura rasa are very few.

Only by great fortune can the soul develop a taste for them.

 

 

[Suresh Anand, Bh.S.]

Srila Prabhupada has made it clear that he is situated in madhurya-rasa. Those who read Sri Caitanya-caritamrta with his purports with great care and attention will understand this simple but sublime fact. It is not a question of one's belief. It is a fact, and an advanced devotee can immediately see it very clearly. One quotation may help, as long as it is not subjected to mundane interpretation and accepted as it is:

"Fortunately we had the opportunity to be born of a Vaiṣṇava father who took care of us very nicely. He prayed to Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī that in the future we would become a servant of the eternal consort of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Thus somehow or other we are now engaged in that service."

(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya-lila, 1.24 Purport)

[Tamohara dasa ADMIN.]

We are all Radha dasa. I dont accept this statement to be as decisive as you find it, Suresh Prabhu. Srila Prabhupada left this world in Ramana Reti where the cowherds play. Krsna Balarmaa were certainly among prefered Deities, and also in Bhubaneswara. His family is Nityananda's followers, and installed Gour Nitai Deities worldwide. He spoke in poetry upon leaving india of eating Krsna's prsadam in the fields  and rolling on the ground etc, rather like a cowherd boy, really.  He also told one senior devotee he simply wants some of Krsna's remnant kaychories, or something like that, that that is all he really aspires for. He is clearly the Great General of Mahaprabhu mentioned in Caitanya Mangala, having crossed the oceans as mentioned there, and according to Krsna Book, that is Bhadasena Gopa. Also, in Krsna Book, Srila Prabhupada says that the love of the gopas is almost the same as the love of the gopis. So, I would argue there is ample good documentation to suggest things may not be quite as you find?

"Q. If your diksa guru Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa and your siksa
guru B. R. Sridhara Maharaja is in madhurya-rasa, wouldn't you be
obliged to worship the guru who is in madhurya-rasa on a higher level?

A. You ask that if one has a diksa guru in sakhya-rasa and siksa guru
in madhurya-rasa, will the madhurya-rasa guru be given more respect
because madhurya-rasa is higher than sakhya-rasa? The answer is that
both will be given equal respect. All considered, the most important
guru is the one who is helping us the most at a particular point in
time. Therefore we should be careful not to allow mundane conceptions
of lower and higher to enter our minds in such matters. My gurus love
Krishna perfectly, although differently in terms of details, and my
ideal is to do the same by their grace with details of my own, albeit
following the general course of one of my gurus (sakhya or madhurya for
example). In Gokula the gopis are not considered higher than the gopas
and given special deference. Narada may come there and give deference
to the gopis' love, but this deference is derived from tatastha-vicara,
or observing from an objective, neutral vantage point. In the Vraja
lila this vantage point is not prevalent, but rather each devotee's
subjective vantage point prevails. And our ideal is to enter there.

Let me also mention that the priya-narma sakhya-rasa, which is a
mixture of sakhya and madhurya, exceeds in excellence vatsalya-rasa and
reaches the pitch of the sthayi of mahabhava. Within mahabhava it does
not reach as far as the mahabhava of the handmaidens of Radha, but
Visvanath Chakaravarti Thakura has written that they are almost the
same in the intimacy of assisting Radha Krishna."

[Suresh Anand, Bh.S.]

Ok Prabhu. My humble obeisances.

[Tamohara dasa ADMIN.]

OK? Meaning you accept that the matter is not decided, Or, that you dont care to discuss it more? Or you are convinced otherwise? Discussion is wide open on this one, any may present their case, as you have interestingly brought this topic forward for our examination.

Tripurari Swami often has insights due to his depth of reading in Vaisnavism.We accept only Srila Prabhupada as conclusive.

I certainly do not know for 100% sure about his spiritual identity, as he has not seen fit exactly to reveal it except inasmuch as i can ascertain with a conditioned brain, not having that perfect internal spiritual vision fully, so for me, it is yet an open issue.

[Tamohara dasa ADMIN.]

[Suresh Anand, Bh.S.]

I cannot deviate from what I know to be true in the face of logic or argument Prabhu. I do not want to continue the discussion if it will cause even small rift. tarko 'pratisthah srutayo vibhinna nasav rsir yasya matan na bhinnam. One can give so many logic and argument. I can give again someone will give again.. this will simply go on and on, just like the foolish devotees who blaspheme Gaur Govind Maharaja. They blaspheme, we make it clear, again they will blaspheme.. they will just never accept. But fact is fact - dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam mahajano yena gatah sa panthah. The real principle is hidden within the heart of a realized soul. We can only understand all these things by following in the footsteps of the acarya. I will say the same thing again if I did not make clear - those who read Caitanya-caritamrta with great care and attention alone can understand all these thing. The greatest secrets of Vedic literature, revealed and those beyond revelation, things even Sri Brahma, Siva, Varuna, Yamaraja, Ganesa - even these great personalities cannot understand, is available in Caitanya-caritamrta. Bhagavad-gita tells us who is God. Bhagavata tells us why to love God. Caritamrta tells us how to love God. But one thing has always been clear to all practitioners of devotional service:

ei saba haya bhakti-śāstra-sūkṣma marma
caitanyera kṛpāya jāne ei saba dharma

"These are some of the finer points of etiquette in devotional service. Only one who has received the mercy of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu can understand these principles."

[Tamohara dasa ADMIN.]

Just by the way, I've read the C.C. at least eight times through.  C. Bhagavata about eight times, Nityananda Caritamrta etc.

There is no necessity for devotees to agree on particulars, such disagreement is quite regular.

I am not generally of a mind to discuss this particular topic either, but Tripurari Swami has made it one  feature among his discussions, and it is an absorbing topic!

[Suresh Anand, Bh.S.]

:)